Do Fancy Goldfish Have Almost No Stomach And Smaller Digestive Tracts Than Other Fish???

In the AquariaCentral.com forums, in a thread about a 75G goldish tank complaining about high nitrates, http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2429760, a "Senior Member" of the forum said they did not believe me when I told the original poster that fancy goldfish had almost no stomach and shorter digestive tracts than most other fish. 

Here's my reply...

Here's a Fancy Goldfish Necropsy (Autopsy) with many nice and juicey pictures... scroll down to picture 9 to see a close up of the stomach and intestines. This article is best viewed while eating a nice big meal. ;-)

http://thegab.org/Goldfish/goldfish-...l-anatomy.html

As you will see, if you made it down to picture 9 without hurling that nice big meal, a fancy goldfish does not have much of a stomach and it's really just an enlarged section of their digestive tract which then narrows down into the intestines. Their is no real separate stomach organ like that in most other fish. Goldfish are not the only fish with the absense of a "real" stomach.

Here's a goldfish anatomical drawing which doesn't even diagram the stomach. http://www.flippersandfins.net/Image...atomyChart.JPG

There aren't many necropsies of most other fish, that I have seen over the years, in fact, I've never seen a photographed necropsy of any other common aquarium fish online, not even bigger aquarium fish... but here are a BUNCH of diagrams showing lots of anatomical drawings of other fish showing they do in fact have clearly defined stomachs. The bottome link is a perch which is, anatomically speaking, very similar to many larger cichlids.
http://kentsimmons.uwinnipeg.ca/16cm...hAnatomy-L.jpg

http://universe-review.ca/I10-82-fish.jpg

http://oceanblue2u.com/images/tropic1.gif

http://www.infovisual.info/02/033_en.html

http://www.bildwoerterbuch.com/en/an...of-a-perch.php (this one is labeled in German, I believe, based on my two years of high school German a long time ago, but down below the image, there is a translation into English and the Magen is the Stomach)

http://www.artscape.us/aquaculture/f...sh_anatomy.jpg

Do you belive me now?

And for some comedic relief...
http://www.godlikemode.com/Goldfish-Cracker-Anatomy.jpg

If any of these links do not work at any point in the future, you can use the Internet Archive Wayback Machine (see link to my blog article about this internet tool) to find the original page and/or image.

Here is one of my posts in the forum thread, the one that led to this other "Senior Member" challenging my reply....

One way to slow down the poop rate of goldfish is to feed them more often but not as much with each feeding. Goldfish have very short digestive tracts and almost no stomach at all, so what goes in pretty much comes out the other end rather quickly.

They are BIG fish so they need lots of food which is why they will forage all the time, munch on plants, etc., but I've found that when I feed mine 3-4 smaller meals on the days when I'm home all day, the fish do not have as much visible poop... compared to how some goldfish will have 1"+ long poops coming out after they eat. This will take some experimenting on the fish keepers part as to how much to feed so that the food stays inside of them longer... and thus be processed so the fish get more nutrition from the food... instead of it being forced out the other end.

The fish don't seem to munch on the plants as much when they get feedings more often either so that's a plus. Someone mentioned floating plants and I agree that floating Anacharis will greatly help with reducing nitrates since the Ancharis will grow faster when it's floating since it's up closer to the light, it can get CO2 from the surface air and still suck up nutrients from the water. It's also harder for the fish to munch on the Anacharis when it's floating compared to when it's planted since they can't tug on it as easily... as it just moves with them. My goldfish leave my BIG crypt plant alone completely. I have to trim it back regularly or it grows to the size of a basketball or larger and doesn't leave much room for the fish to swim in the front or back... and that's with a 48" x 18" footprint.

Goldfish keepers pretty much know that the poop is often the same color as whatever they just ate, which further proves that it's not being processed much while inside the fish for a short period of time. I know the fish poop must still have a large amount of nutritional value as I've seen my Mystery Snails munching on it before... after the goldfish pigged out on some blanched Zuchini slices and the poop was pretty yellow when it came out. EWWWWW!!!... but the Mystery Snails didn't seem to mind. LOL
 
I hope this helps.
 
Lenny Vasbinder aka GoldLenny in forums

Why Fish Keepers And Breeders Should NOT Create Hybrid Or Mutant Fish

http://tinyurl.com/Hybrid-Or-Mutant-Fish

So... a question about hybrid fish recently came up in the AquaticLife Yahoo Group.

Here's the question and my answer.

-----Original Message-----
From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AquaticLife] My hybrid fish

Hey guys remember back 3 months ago when my fire mouth and pink convict mated and had off spring?  Well the guys are almost grown up.. and yes I know Lenny and others, it's bad to create hybrids but this was an accident.

These guys are beautiful, they're pink with a black dot and some stripes.

I posted the new pics I just took on them. Also I'm willing to let go of some of these guys.

Enjoy!

AND NOW MY ANSWER...

-----Original Message-----
From: Lenny V. aka GoldLenny
To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, May 25, 2010 6:41 pm
Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] My hybrid fish

While it probably doesn't matter to most folks if an individual fish owner allows cross-breeding to happen, I DON'T think it's a good idea for that fish owner to distribute them. I'm not a cichlid *enthusiast* so it's probably NOT me that you will hear the most complaints from.

But your offer to give or sell some to others... now that's the downside of hybrids... when their creators start distributing them around and then folks somewhere down the line allows them to cross-breed once again, especially if it's a breeder that then sells these hybrid-hybrids. It can really muck things up years down the line for folks that are trying to keep their fish lines pure.

Unlike the AKC (American Kennel Club) and other recognized animal clubs around the world, which track the lineage of registered animals, nobody tracks the lineage of fish so a new buyer of what they think is a very nice looking pure bred fish ends up getting hybridized genetics that results in any offspring, that they thought would be pure, actually being a bunch of mutts.

Now, that said, there's nothing wrong with a mutt... whether it's a dog (some of my best dogs over the years were GAM's --- Great American Mutt), cat, fish or whatever as long as the person buying it knows it's a mutt... but with fish, often times, they have no way of knowing.

Personally, I'm of the mindset that there are SO MANY different types of fish out there, especially with cichlids, that I do not understand nor have a clue why the Dr. Frankenstein mindset exists with some mass breeders (not you) who do in-breeding, cross-breeding and then more in-breeding, in order to intentionally create some of the intentional deformities or "mutant fish", like fancy goldfish for example.

This is also the complaint from most cichlid enthusiasts about the Parrot Cichlid which is now being mass in-bred to create a few of these mutant looking fish out of a hatch of hundreds and most of the rest of the hatch is culled (killed) because their birth defects do not match what the Dr. Frankenstein's were looking for. The same thing happens with fancy goldfish.

If this type of activity was done with any other pet, with breeders intentionally breeding dogs or cats with intentional birth defects like bubble eyes, brain like growths on the tops of their heads, missing legs or other missing body parts, gross deformities, etc., people would be outraged but in the fish hobby, some people seem to want to collect these mutant and deformed fish.

Maybe there's a little Dr. Frankenstein (or devil) in everybody... MUAHH-HA-HA-HA HA!!!!

Lenny Vasbinder
Fish Blog - http://goldlenny.blogspot.com/
(Links to any articles referenced in above reply are listed on the right
side, alphabetically under Labels and also under Archives by Year, Month)

-----Original Message-----
From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
On Behalf Of Deenerz
Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 8:56 PM
To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] My hybrid fish

Lenny,

You put that wonderfully!

I may have to quote you in the future.

-Mike


-----Original Message-----
From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
On Behalf Of Donna R
Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 9:40 PM
To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] My hybrid fish

Thanks for saying it Lenny!


-----Original Message-----
From: Lenny V. aka GoldLenny
Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 9:51 PM
To: 'AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] My hybrid fish

Quote away! I actually made a few minor revisions/amendments in my original post, so you might want to quote this new one.

Heck, I might have to do a new article for my blog. Then you can just post a link! ;-) I'm sure I'll add even more thoughts when I do my blog article.

BTW, I just did a couple of new blogs in the past week, but one of those was actually an old article that I had written on another forum back in 2005/2006 and finally got around to transferring it to my blog, my "TOP TEN LIST - Fishless Cycling" (with help from contributors on that forum). I did it as a kind of contest where other forum members could contribute and I picked the TOP TEN funny but serious reasons to fishless cycle.... it's called Edu-tainment! (Enter-cation just doesn't sound right! LOL)

Lenny Vasbinder


-----Original Message-----
From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
On Behalf Of jaiko
Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2010 5:16 AM
To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [AquaticLife]

Good post Lenny. The problem is i have too many and no space for them (what can i do with these guys?) i don't believe in euthanasia.

I also belive that hyvrids should not be made as you do. but sometimes
nature can not be control by us mortals.

Jaiko


From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
On Behalf Of Lenny V. aka GoldLenny
Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2010 12:06 PM
To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [AquaticLife]

I agree with you on the euthanasia part once the fish have hatched, other than culling obviously deformed fry, which is why it would have been better to NOT let them hatch in the first place if you don't have space for them.

I've intentionally vacuumed up eggs on numerous occasions for fish that I did not have room to grow out... like whenever my goldfish scatter eggs all over during their mating spurts. I don't have room to grow out a bunch of goldfish so I have to vacuum up the eggs. I think Amber has to remove clutches of eggs from her Apple/Mystery Snails when her tank has enough of them already.

Now, if you have pure bred fish or snails and you want to get into selling them, or even giving them away for free and you have the space and time to grow out the fry, then it's fine to do that but if you let hybrids hatch, then you just have to accept that they are yours or at least only given to someone who is responsible and explicitly KNOWS that these fish are NOT to be distributed any further... but you may not have control of this person once you give them the hybrids and that means that you could be responsible for hybrid fish getting let loose in the wild or being mixed with pure bred fish causing all of their offspring to be mutts.

IMO, it's just a situation that is best avoided in the first place.

Lenny Vasbinder


-----Original Message-----
From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
On Behalf Of Deenerz
Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2010 8:19 PM
To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AquaticLife]

Someone has to say it.
You may not believe in euthanasia but if there is someone in your area with a cull fish. Aka a fish that eats unwanted fish.

I was thrilled when my first pair of convicts spawned in about 2 seconds after getting out of the bag I brought them home in. But shortly after that I had 100 + babies swimming around the tank. Removed the parents for a day and let the other fish handle it and all was back to normal.

Barring that your hands are full.

Donna's advice is a great for the future spawns.

-Mike


-----Original Message-----
From: Donna R
To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, May 26, 2010 6:00 pm
Subject: RE: [AquaticLife]

You can stock an African tank with natural predators like Synodontis Multipunctatus to handle the fry patrol the way mother nature intended.

Unfortunately now that they were created and even raised they may need to remain your responsibility.


-----Original Message-----
From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
On Behalf Of bill 1433
Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2010 9:30 PM
To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [AquaticLife]

Yes, I'm afraid I must agree with others here who suggest culling, you have little choice and later, as the fish grow out, it could be quite a blood bath if not handled properly. Fights for space as well as food will be rampant and not a pleasure to watch. With the room restrictions you have mentioned from the apartment side of it, there's no way to go.

A 75 would only take up the difference in width coming away from the wall,if your 40 is a standard 48 x 13 x 16 or 18 inches high. Or with just another foot in length, if you could possibly handle the width, a standard 100-gallon at 5 feet, 21 or 22 inches high, and 18 inches in width would be the best but even this size could not accommodate all sixty of them at maturity.

The only bright spot may be that is highly likely that these fish may be sterile to some extent and may not breed within themselves. I seem to remember reading some place that when species cross like this that is a normal condition. I was also wondering, and again may have missed the forwarding comment from you, after this spawn, what happened to the parents?

Bill