Salt - To Use Or Not To Use... That Is The Question!

Articles on the use of salt in FW aquariums & Osmoregulation:

(This is snipped with a couple of new links from my Disease - Illness posts)

http://www.aquarticles.com/articles/ponds/Kebus_Salt_Treatments.html (GoldLenny)

http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/health/salt.shtml - Salt or NO Salt (GoldLenny)

http://groups.msn.com/FishHealth/osmoregulation.msnw (Hailey)

http://www.fishdoc.co.uk/water/osmoregulation.htm (GoldLenny)

http://www.goldfishinfo.com/salt.htm (GoldLenny)

http://badmanstropicalfish.com/articles/article22.html - The Great Salt Myth (GoldLenny)

http://www.badmanstropicalfish.com/articles/article5.html - To Salt or NOT to Salt (GoldLenny)

http://www.algone.com/salt_in_fresh.php - Salt in Freshwater (GoldLenny)

http://www.algone.com/salinity.htm - Saltwater Salinity & Specific Gravity (GoldLenny)

http://thegab.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5427 - TheGab.org (Goldfish & Aquarium Board) forum thread on Calcium and the Osmoregulatory System. (GoldLenny)

http://www.koivet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15967 - KoiVet.com LONG forum thread on Salt, Chloride and other minerals/chemicals related to Salt & Osmoregulation. (GoldLenny)

Sick Fish Questionnaire

http://tinyurl.com/Sick-Fish-Questionnaire

We understand that if you are having a problem, especially one resulting is sick fish, you want help as soon as possible. In order to give you answers as quickly as we can, we need you to provide answers to as many of the questions below as possible, especially test readings.

It would be best if you cut and paste this entire set of questions into your first post, in one of the forums listed on the right of this page, to be sure you answer each inquiry.

Test readings (in numbers) for:
Ammonia:
Nitrite:
Nitrate:
pH:
GH:
KH:
Temperature:

Also post your tap water baseline numbers if known. If not known, now would be a good time to start finding out what they are. See my article on this page http://goldlenny.blogspot.com/2007/05/find-your-tap-source-water-baseline.html

Tank size:
Tank inhabitants (number and type of fish or other aquatic life):
Water change amount and when the last one was done:
Filter maintenance and what exactly did you do:
How long the tank has been set up:
Water or filter additives or pH adjusters used:
Recent (within 2 weeks) changes or additions to the tank:

Full description of the problem you have been having, including any odd behavior of the inhabitants or appearance of the tank or inhabitants…some common examples are:
Fish behavior-
separating from school
hiding
breathing rapidly
hanging at surface
sitting on bottom
having difficulty swimming
scraping body on ornaments/plants/gravel

Fish appearance-
pale or different in color (describe)
raised spots/tufts of cottony material/cloudy patches on skin
fins fraying
chunks missing from fins
open sores
bent spine

Tank appearance-
whitish cloudy water
greenish cloudy water
excessive algae (specify color)

We'll try to help as best we can.

Lenny Vasbinder aka GoldLenny

Disease & Illness Diagnosis And Treatment

UPDATES -
10/26/2008 - A couple of new links added and a couple of old/bad links removed.

NOTE - If you are having trouble figuring out what is wrong with your Tropical Fish or Goldfish, please come to the Freshwater Emergency Rooms at one of the forums to the right. See near the bottom of this page for a form you can copy/paste and fill out as much information as possible so people trying to help do not have to ask a lot of questions and can get right to helping you.
You can also check for a local fish veterinarian using these sites:
http://www.aquavets.com/ - "This web portal provides access to searchable online databases of Aquatic Veterinarians and Disease Diagnostic Laboratories involved with the health, welfare and medicine of any aquatic animal...". I suggest clicking "Search For A Vet", then putting your Country and State, then check off Ornamental Fish and Other, then check off Private Veterinary Practice, Academic Education (Undergrad or Grad), Continuing Education and Government Agency. Using this for my area, the only one that I was able to find was the nearby University Vet School. I know that my local PetsMart has a Veterinary office within the store but I'm not sure if they treat fish.
http://www.fishdoc.net/index.php - Has a "Find A Vet" section.
http://www.koivetforum.com/ - There is often a veterinarian in the forums or chat rooms so make sure you try KoiVet.com for your Koi and Goldfish issues.
Non-Disease Diagnosis:
Are Your Fish Really Suffering From Disease? A guide to non-disease causes of illness http://www3.sympatico.ca/drosera1/fish/illness.htm (GoldLenny)

Shock diagnosis: http://groups.msn.com/FishHealth/shock.msnw (Hailey)
The original page on "Shock Diagnosis" is shut down but the original article can still be found here, on the Internet Wayback Archive, which takes a snapshot of every page on the internet and archives the pages... just in case something like this ever happens to your favorite site... so here's the new link... http://web.archive.org/web/20040131193318/http://groups.msn.com/FishHealth/shock.msnw
If you ever need to find a copy of one of your old favorites, if you have the URL, you can just go to the Internet Wayback Archive http://www.archive.org/web/web.php and copy/paste or type out the URL in the search field and then you should find that page. You may have to check a few of the snapshots to find one that works right. I'm not sure why this happens, but sometimes the Wayback Archive will crawl a page and pick up the background only, which happened to the two 2008 archived pages on the above link but the 2004 links worked fine.
Stress Related Problems:
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/FA005 (DataGuru from TheGAB.org)
http://www.cs.duke.edu/~narten/faq/stress.html (GoldLenny)
http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=16&cat=1791&articleid=2476 (GoldLenny)
http://faq.thekrib.com/begin-stress.html (GoldLenny)
http://www.aquariumfish.net/information/signs_of_stress_and_disease.htm (GoldLenny)
http://www.algone.com/fishstress.php (GoldLenny)
Tropical Fish Disease Diagnosis & Treatment:
http://www.fishpalace.org/Disease.html (GoldLenny) (This original Pandora's Disease page is no longer active but you can still see the entire page and images by viewing the Internet Archived page hosted on the Wayback Machine at http://web.archive.org/web/20051217230513/http://www.fishpalace.org/disease.html

http://www.2cah.com/pandora/Disease.html (Hailey - Mirror Site for above but it's not working any longer either so use the Web Archive link above.)

http://www.fishdoc.co.uk/disease/clinicalsigns.htm (GoldLenny)

http://www.fishdoc.co.uk/disease/diseasehome.htm (GoldLenny)

http://www.fishdoc.co.uk/treatments/treatmenthome.htm (GoldLenny)

http://fish.mongabay.com/disease.htm (GoldLenny)

http://www.klsnet.com/files/fishchart.htm (GoldLenny)

http://www.fishyfarmacy.com/diseases.html (GoldLenny)

http://www.flippersandfins.net/HITHarticle2.htm - Hole-In-The-Head (HITH) Disease Article(Cooltow1)

http://www.oscarfish.com/cms_view_article.php?aid=51 - Article on "Bloat" affecting Oscars, Cichlids and others. (Hailey)

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/FA041 - In-depth Article on Parasites (Hailey)

Goldfish Disease Diagnosis & Treatment:
http://www.aquarticles.com/articles/ponds/Kebus_Salt_Treatments.html (GoldLenny)

http://thegab.org/Articles/DiagnosisChart.html (GoldLenny)

http://www.goldfishinfo.com/ailment1.htm (and page 2)(GoldLenny)

http://www.koivet.com/html/glossary/glossary_cat.php?category=Symptoms&name=Symptoms%2B%22ro=Symptoms (GoldLenny)

http://www.kokosgoldfish.com/disease.html (GoldLenny)

http://www.fishpondinfo.com/health.htm (GoldLenny)

http://www.fishdoc.co.uk/index.htm (GoldLenny)

http://www.avianandexotic.com/csfishes/csf001.pdf (Practical Koi & Goldfish Medicine .pdf Document)(GoldLenny)

http://thegab.org/Links/GoldfishProcedures.html (Goldfish Veterinary Procedures)(GoldLenny)

Fish Poop Diagnosis:

http://www.kokosgoldfish.com/GoldfishPoop.html (GoldLenny)
http://www.goldfishutopia.com/information.php?pID=20&sid=47b516cf720bf290b1f9cef759437d05 (GoldLenny)
http://www.fishyfarmacy.com/fish_diseases/fecal_disorders.html (GoldLenny)
http://thegab.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2364 (Goldfish Poop Pictures Forum Thread - with explanations)(GoldLenny)

Articles on the use of salt in FW aquariums & osmoregulation:

http://www.aquarticles.com/articles/ponds/Kebus_Salt_Treatments.html (GoldLenny)

http://groups.msn.com/FishHealth/osmoregulation.msnw (Hailey)

http://www.fishdoc.co.uk/water/osmoregulation.htm (GoldLenny)

http://www.goldfishinfo.com/salt.htm (GoldLenny)

http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/health/salt.shtml - Salt or NO Salt (GoldLenny)

http://badmanstropicalfish.com/articles/article22.html - The Great Salt Myth (GoldLenny)

http://www.badmanstropicalfish.com/articles/article5.html - To Salt or NOT to Salt (GoldLenny)
http://www.algone.com/salt_in_fresh.php - Salt in Freshwater (GoldLenny)

http://www.algone.com/salinity.htm - Saltwater Salinity & Specific Gravity (GoldLenny)

http://thegab.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5427 - TheGab.org (Goldfish & Aquarium Board) forum thread on Calcium and the Osmoregulatory System. (GoldLenny)

http://www.koivet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15967 - KoiVet.com LONG forum thread on Salt, Chloride and other minerals/chemicals related to Salt & Osmoregulation. (GoldLenny)

Medications & Medicated Fish Foods -
http://thegab.org/Articles/MedicineCabinet.html (Medicine Cabinet)(GoldLenny)
http://thegab.org/Articles/Medications.html (Descriptions of Medicines)(GoldLenny)
http://www.pondrx.com/categories/249.html (Medications For Sale-3 pages)(GoldLenny)
http://thegab.org/Articles/MedicatedFood.html (Descriptions of Medicated Fish Foods)(GoldLenny)
http://www.goldfishconnection.com/shop/listing.php?parentId=5 (Medicated Foods For Sale)(GoldLenny)
http://thegab.org/Articles/MedicatedGelFood.html (DIY Medicated Fish Food)(GoldLenny)
http://www.pondrx.com/home.php?cat=251 (Medicated Foods For Sale)(GoldLenny)
And if all else fails...
Humane euthanasia: http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-the-most-humane-way-to-euthanize-a-fish.htm (Hailey)
Clove Oil Method Of Euthanasia: http://www.aquatic-hobbyist.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=14 (GoldLenny)
Necropsy (Autopsy) and Anatomy Information -
http://thegab.org/Articles/GoldfishInternalAnatomy.html (GoldLenny)
http://thegab.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6126&highlight (GoldLenny)
http://myfwc.com/Fishing/Fishes/anatomy.html (GoldLenny)

Anatomy, Physiology & Cell Biology 100 - (A very comprehensive college level online guide):
http://trc.ucdavis.edu/mjguinan/apc100/modules/index.html (GoldLenny)

IF YOU DO VISIT ONE OF THE MANY FORUMS FOR HELP, TRY TO PROVIDE AS MUCH INFORMATION ABOUT YOUR FISH PROBLEM. HERE IS A GUIDELINE, PREPARED BY HAILEY, A VERY GOOD FISH KEEPER. COPY AND PASTE THIS FORM INTO YOUR EMAIL OR POST AND THEN FILL IN AS MANY ANSWERS AS POSSIBLE TO HELP THOSE TRYING TO HELP YOU:
We understand that if you are having a problem, especially one resulting is sick fish, you want help as soon as possible. In order to give you answers as quickly as we can, we need you to provide answers to as many of the questions below as possible, especially test readings. It would be best if you cut and paste this entire set of questions into your first post to be sure you answer each inquiry.

Test readings (in numbers) for:
Ammonia:
Nitrite:
Nitrate:
pH:
GH:
KH:
Also post your tap water baseline numbers if known. If not known, now would be a good time to start finding out what they are. See my article on this page http://goldlenny.blogspot.com/2007/05/find-your-tap-source-water-baseline.html
Temperature:

Tank size:

Tank inhabitants (number and type of fish or other aquatic life):

Water change amount and when the last one was done:
Filter maintenance and what exactly did you do:

How long the tank has been set up:

Water or filter additives or pH adjusters used:

Recent (within 2 weeks) changes or additions to the tank:

Full description of the problem you have been having, including any odd behavior of the inhabitants or appearance of the tank or inhabitants…some common examples are:

Fish behavior-
separating from school
hiding
breathing rapidly
hanging at surface
sitting on bottom
having difficulty swimming
scraping body on ornaments/plants/gravel

Fish appearance-
pale or different in color (describe)
raised spots/tufts of cottony material/cloudy patches on skin
fins fraying
chunks missing from fins
open sores
bent spine

Tank appearance-
whitish cloudy water
greenish cloudy water
excessive algae (specify color)

Hailey

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><((((º>·´¯`·.,..·´¯`·..><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>

If you have a favorite site that that I have not listed, please leave the information in the comments section below.

GoldLenny
Mozy.com - FREE, secure, encrypted and automatic online backup of your documents and files. Check out how simple and secure it can be to use the Mozy backup system. It will back up your most important files, photos and folders... or your entire hard drive, every day/night (you set the schedule) while you aren't using your computer... and did I mention... it's FREE. I have been using this product/service since it was in Beta Testing and have been 100% satisfied with the final product!!!

A to Z of Fish Keeping: "How-To", Training and Information for New Fish Keepers and Experts alike!

http://tinyurl.com/A-To-Z-Of-Fish-Keeping

NOTICE - PLEASE FEEL FREE TO ASK LOTS OF QUESTIONS IN FORUMS LISTED TO THE RIGHT WHERE YOU WILL FIND ME OR MANY OTHER EXPERIENCED FISH KEEPERS. YOU CAN ALSO POST COMMENTS AT THE BOTTOM AND I WILL ANSWER YOUR QUESTION(S) HERE ON MY BLOG.

THE TOP TWO PROBLEMS FOR BEGINNERS - 1) OVERSTOCKING YOUR TANK and 2) THE NITROGEN CYCLE (Commonly called New Tank Syndrome). Scroll down a little for two free online fish keeping tutorials that will walk you through all of the basics and then there is also a free online beginner quiz to see how well you are doing.

Here are the answers to both of those problems:

DO NOT OVERSTOCK YOUR AQUARIUM: A BETTER SET OF GUIDELINES TO REPLACE THE FISH-KILLING 1" PER GALLON RULE THAT IS MISUSED AND MISUNDERSTOOD SO OFTEN - http://goldlenny.blogspot.com/2007/02/new-rules-guidelines-to-replace-1-per.html

NEW TANK SYNDROME / THE NITROGEN CYCLE: WHILE IT WOULD HAVE BEEN MUCH BETTER FOR YOU AND YOUR FISH IF YOU WOULD HAVE DONE A "FISHLESS CYCLE" OR Dr. Tim's Comparison Article OR http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/startover/fishless.shtml ON YOUR TANK OR USE DR. TIM'S ONE AND ONLY, http://www.drtimsaquatics.com/productguide/H2O-PURE_Products/H2O-PURE_Products.html. DR. TIM WAS THE INVENTOR OF A PRODUCT FORMERLY KNOWN AS BIO-SPIRA WHICH IS NOT AVAILABLE IN IT'S ORIGINAL FORMULA. IF YOU ARE HAVING THIS PROBLEM, THEN YOU ARE "STUCK" WITH "CYCLING WITH FISH". GO TO ONE OF THE FORUMS I HAVE LISTED ON THE RIGHT TO GET MORE INFORMATION ON "CYCLING WITH FISH".

IF YOU ARE NOT HAVING THOSE PROBLEMS, GREAT!!! THEN START HERE:

BEGINNERS TUTORIAL - START HERE -http://faq.thekrib.com/begin-intro.html
This is one of my favorite places to send new fish keepers as they can learn about the various aspects of fish keeping by following all of the links in this tutorial. Pay particular attention to "The Nitrogen Cycle", "Fishless Cycling" (recommended), "Cycling With Fish"(not recommended but you may already be stuck with this) and Basic Water Chemistry but please read over all of the other links as well and feel free to ask lots of questions at the forums I have listed to the right, where you will usually find me or many other experienced fish keepers.

And if you want to learn even more, here is another tutorial site - http://badmanstropicalfish.com/basics/basics_aquariums.html

And if you feel you are doing well already, take this online quiz to see how you do.
http://www.thetropicaltank.co.uk/quiz1.htm

If you have any questions, please feel free to look for me at the forums listed above.

TOP TEN REASONS TO FISHLESS CYCLE -
(A little humor to help emphasize this very serious matter)
http://board.fishchannel.com/Topic69655-5-1.aspx

The old link was http://www.aquariumfish.com/aquariumfish/board/Topic69655-5-1.aspx  but when AF changed to FishChannel, the old links no longer work.

FISHLESS CYCLING TIP!!! - I know a common complaint is people not being able to find the 10% Ammonia Hydroxide (clear ammonia) at their local stores but I recently saw online that Ace Hardware sells their own brand for around $2.00 a quart. Here's their online link to buy it by the case... but the stores sell individual units. http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=1307957&cp=&fbn=Brand%7CAce+Hardware&f=Brand%2F19262%2F&fbc=1&kw=ammonia&parentPage=search&searchId=18414252422

Another source of "ammonia", if you cannot find the plain ammonia at your local stores, is to look in the spice or baking section of your grocery store and get some Bicarbonate Of Ammonia or Powdered Baking Ammonia which can be used in place of the plain ammonia. This will also raise your alkalinity and KH but when you do your large water change after the fishless cycle is complete, you will get rid of the excess KH and nitrates at the same time.

THE NITROGEN CYCLE EXPLAINED - (In case you did not read the beginners tutorial above) http://fish.orbust.net/cycling.html


AMMONIA FURTHER EXPLAINED - (The beginning of "The Nitrogen Cycle") FAMA Article - Controlling Ammonia by Ben Helm http://www.animalnetwork.com/fama/detail.aspx?aid=26872&sts=all For further information and a good CHART to show ammonia toxicity as it relates to pH levels, go here... http://dataguru.org/misc/aquarium/AmmoniaTox.html


NITRITES FURTHER EXPLAINED - (The middle of "The Nitrogen Cycle")
http://www.vcnet.com/koi_net/H2Oquality.html#nitri

NITRATES FURTHER EXPLAINED - (The end product of "The Nitrogen Cycle")
http://goldlenny.blogspot.com/2007/02/nitrates-long-explanation-thanks-to.html and
http://www.vcnet.com/koi_net/H2Oquality.html#nitra


FILTER MAINTENANCE AND CLEANING - (How to keep your tank from going into constant mini-cycles) http://goldlenny.blogspot.com/2007/02/notice-this-article-is-very-important.html

MASTER TEST KITS ON SALE FOR $12.99 AND UP - (Everybody needs a decent Master Test Kit) http://goldlenny.blogspot.com/2007/03/everyone-needs-decent-master-test-kit.html

WATER CHEMISTRY FURTHER EXPLAINED - This site is mostly about Pond Water Chemistry but it's just as applicable for aquariums and I believe it's well written and easy to understand. http://www.vcnet.com/koi_net/H2Oquality.html

FISH PROFILES AND COMPATIBILITY - (Mongabay has the best profiles and largest assortment. Very accurate and detailed species profiles for most fish so you can check out the type of fish you want while you are fishless cycling your new tank. Pay particular attention to the SC (Species Compatibility) section, which will help you in deciding suitable tank mates) MONGABAY - http://fish.mongabay.com/index.htm

Or GoldLenny's complete listing of Profile and Compatibility sites at: http://goldlenny.blogspot.com/2007/02/fish-compatibility-charts-fish.html

HAILEY'S 10 GALLON STOCKING LIST - This is a list of suitable fish for a 10G tank and stocking/mixing recommendations. Updated to include Betta's in a 10G. (PLEASE NOTE THAT YOU CANNOT KEEP EVEN A SINGLE GOLDFISH IN A 10G TANK. SEE NEXT PARAGRAPH FOR GOLDFISH INFORMATION) http://goldlenny.blogspot.com/2007/03/haileys-10-gallon-tank-stocking-list.html

A REALLY GOOD FOUR PAGE ARTICLE ON KEEPING GOLDFISH... ONE OF THE ONLY ONES THAT I'VE FOUND THAT HAS PROPER TANK SIZE INFORMATION: http://www.aquarticles.com/articles/ponds/Wilkinson_1Goldfish.html

MORE FISH COMPATIBILITY CHARTS AND PROFILE SITES -

http://www.klsnet.com/files/Fishchrt.xls (Downloadable file)

http://www.liveaquaria.com/general/fwcompatibility_chart.cfm

http://www.ratemyfishtank.com/freshwater_compatibility_chart.php


OR FOR MY COMPLETE LIST OF COMPATIBILITY & PROFILE SITES: http://goldlenny.blogspot.com/2007/02/fish-compatibility-charts-fish.html

NOTICE: ALWAYS REMEMBER THAT COMPATIBILITY CHARTS ARE SUBJECT TO MANY VARIABLES AND MAY NOT BE AS ACCURATE AS YOU WOULD LIKE SINCE OTHER FACTORS IN YOUR TANK/SETUP MAY INFLUENCE FISH BEHAVIOR. WHEN A CHART SAYS TWO FISH ARE COMPATIBLE, IT MAY NOT BE CLEAR IN SAYING THEY NEED TO BE IN A HUGE TANK SO THEY EACH HAVE THEIR OWN TERRITORY. PLEASE CHECK YOUR TANK SETUP AND COMPATIBILITY AT ONE OF THE FORUMS LISTED ON THE TOP RIGHT OF THIS PAGE.


WHY YOU SHOULD NOT ADD SALT TO YOUR FRESHWATER AQUARIUM except for occasional treatment of disease, nitrite issues, etc. - (The Osmoregulatory System)

http://groups.msn.com/Breedingtropicalfish/osmoregulation.msnw

http://www.fishdoc.co.uk/water/osmoregulation.htm

http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/health/salt.shtml

http://badmanstropicalfish.com/articles/article22.html

http://www.badmanstropicalfish.com/articles/article5.html

http://www.goldfishinfo.com/salt.htm

http://thegab.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5427 - TheGab.org (Goldfish & Aquarium Board) forum thread on Calcium and the Osmoregulatory System. (GoldLenny)

http://www.koivet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15967 - KoiVet.com LONG forum thread on the use of Salt, Chloride and other minerals/chemicals related to Salt & Osmoregulation in Koi/Goldfish. (GoldLenny)





DISEASE & ILLNESS DIAGNOSIS SITES:
GoldLenny's Complete List of Fish-Health related sites: http://goldlenny.blogspot.com/2007/02/disease-illness-diagnosis-treatment.html


DICTIONARY: ACRONYMS, ABBREVIATIONS AND KEYWORDS COMMONLY USED IN FISH KEEPING - (To help you navigate the many acronyms and abbreviations used in these forums) http://goldlenny.blogspot.com/2007/04/dictionary-acronyms-abbreviations-and.html or http://www.badmanstropicalfish.com/glossary.html


POLL - Did your LFS or CS give you good advice... or NOT? (Actual POLL on new forums) http://www.aquariumfish.com/aquariumfish/board/Topic111975-5-1.aspx

HOW LONG SHOULD FISH LIVE? An expected lifespan guide for fish keepers - http://goldlenny.blogspot.com/2007/02/how-long-should-aquarium-fish-live.html

*** This list was compiled with the help of Hailey (Our forums most popular advisor and one of the most knowledgeable fish keepers out here on the net) and many, many others who have taught me over the years.

NOTICE TO OTHER READERS OR CONTRIBUTORS - This Blog article will continually be developed so please post links and threads in the comments section and I will update this article with credit given to you.

Once again, if you have any questions, please feel free to look for me at one of the three forums at the top of this article.

Thanks,

GoldLenny
Mozy.com - FREE, secure, encrypted and automatic online backup of your documents and files. Check out how simple and secure it can be to use the Mozy backup system. It will back up your most important files, photos and folders... or your entire hard drive, every day/night (you set the schedule) while you aren't using your computer... and did I mention... it's FREE. I have been using this product/service since it was in Beta Testing and have been 100% satisfied with the final product!!!