Friday, December 26, 2008

Brita Filters and Pur Filters (was Re: Newbie with a fungus problem)

When you say your "baseline tests were zero for ammonia at first then went up the next day"... was that for your tap water baseline? Did you add dechlor to the tap water immediately before testing or strictly rely on your Britta filter? My first thoughts would be that the Brita filter would catch the chloramine but we know carbon doesn't catch ammonia but is supposed to catch chlorine... so I'm not sure how it treats chloramine (which is a combination chemical made of chlorine and ammonia). But then I would think that Brita and Pur would add something to their little tap water filters that would catch the chloramine since I'm sure their customers expect it.

Here's what Brita says...
http://www.brita.com/us/support/about-impurities/
BritaR water tastes better because BritaR filtration systems reduce chlorine (taste and odor)1. Because BritaR filters remove only small amounts of fluoride over the life of the filter, you don't have to worry about missing out on the benefits of fluoride in your tap water.2

How the BritaR Faucet Filter works
An added layer around the filter traps large particulate matter from the water. Activated powdered carbon acts like a sponge, sucking up Chlorine (taste and odor and Benzene). A zeolite acts like a magnet attracting Lead

Then from the FAQ page...
http://www.brita.com/us/support/faq/faucet-faq/
The BritaR Faucet Filter removes microbiological cryptosporidium and giardia. It also reduces lead, TTHM, VOCs, lindane (pesticide), 2,4-D, alachlor, atrazine (herbicide), chlorine (taste and odor) and sediment1. For more information about the impurities that BritaR Faucet Filters reduce, including any health risks they may help avoid confusion.

NOTICE that it specifically mentions "Chlorine" but doesn't mention Chloramine... and then it says it only "reduces chlorine", not remove it completely.... things that make you go hmmmmm????

To be "Fair and Balanced", here's what I found on the Pur website...
http://www.purwater.com/#/contaminants
http://www.purwater.com/manuals/PUR_Filter_Comparison.pdf
Well.. unfortunately, you'll have to read the Pur website yourself since the Pur website relies on Flash Player and PDF file to display what their filters do but they also do NOT mention anything about removing or reducing chloramine... only REDUCING chlorine.

Unless someone else can find something definitive and in writing from either of these companies, I would strongly suggest that you NOT rely on these faucet filters for removing chlorine or chloramine from your tap water to be used in your fish tanks. You should still use a dechlor product when using these types of filter systems. They might be OK in removing some other nasties that our fish may not like but they do not make the water completely fish ready.

Lenny Vasbinder
Fish Blog - http://goldlenny.blogspot.com/
(Links to any articles referenced in above reply are listed on the right
side, alphabetically under Labels and also under Archives by Year, Month)

-----Original Message-----
From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Menagerie_Manager
Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 3:35 PM
To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Newbie with a fungus problem?

Lots of stuff to catch up on. I'll post a complete update later
tonight.

- Concerns about chloramines started, I believe, because my Baseline tests
were zero for Ammonia at first and then went up the next day. I'll verify
that before my post tonight.
- Red streaks still pretty much the same - will try for a picture.
- All fish eating and CB much more active, but does still rest more than
the others.
- Bought the dechlor because I wanted to stop using the Brita tap filter.
It didn't cost much, so no big deal if I need to stick with the Prime. For
some reason I thought maybe the chloramines were coming from the filter, but I'll do another Baseline test on just the straight tap water before I do
anything. I'm sticking with the Brita for continuity until the fish don't
need any more meds. I'll check with the water company on Monday.
- Did a big PWC today pre-PraziPro, because it seems to need at least 3
days between treatments. Can I just treat replacement water if I need to do
a PWC before then?

More later.

DebR and the Three Goldfish
(CB, Lucille, and Raven)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Raymond Wetzel" <sevenspringss@wmconnect.com
<mailto:sevenspringss%40wmconnect.com> >
To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> >
Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2008 12:48 PM
Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Newbie with a fungus problem?

With the amounts of water you are changing daily, I'm now beginning
to get suspicious of the ammonia and nitrite test results remaining
at their previous levels. If this continues, I'd have to suggest
your looking further at these tests, their reagents or the manner in
which they're being read. If these are found to be A-OK, then I
would suspect that (1) much of you present ammonia is from your water
supply coming to you as chloramine, and/or (2) your filter is far
from being cycled, or by now the ammonia-converting bacteria should
be sufficient to take care of any influx of new ammonia/ammonium,
even though the nitrite-converting bacteria may not yet be expect to
keep up. We'll work on it though.

Noticing Lucille's Septicemia is unchanged. While its not especially
expected that all fish involved, affected by the same parameters
which may have brought this on, should necessarily develop
Septicemia, after time exposed to these same parameters (if they do
still exist) it could be looked forward to seeing some development of
this in the other fish. If its possible, can you get a pic of
Lucille, showing these streaks?

Are all fish still eating? If it does become necessary to treat for
Septicemia, it should be welcomed to note that it is deemed safe to
use Maracyn II (an antibiotic of choice for Septicemia) in conjuction
with PraziPro. Too, PraziPro is seen to be a rather mild medication,
which also should be a welcomed bit of info.

As Lenny mentioned, there's no need to get a dechlor in addition to
Prime, as Prime will do the same thing. Your apparent (by you) need
for a dechlor might suggest to me that you feel you have chlorine in
your tap water which you want to detoxify. Are you quite sure you do
not have chloramine in your tap water, and if you know you do (but
then, why would you want a dechlor?), you should be aware that your
Brita filter on your water supply may not remove chloramine -- or may
be only limited in its effectiveness against chloramine. If you have
chloramine, which I just assumed all along as more and more water
companies are converting to this, not only should you have been using
at least your Amquel+ all along (preferably, Prime), but you should
not consider using a dechlor (which removes chlorine only) in an
effort to save money, as was suggested unless you're sure you only
have chlorine. Otherwise, you should use Prime now, and continue to
use it if your ammonia results indicate your having this waste
product and regardless of your Brita filter, if you know this is in
your water supply. A quick call to your supplier should tell you.
Ray

--- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> ,
"Menagerie_Manager"
Tuesday Night Check in (Day 22 of Salt - Day 6 of reduced)
Tank readings @ 10:30AM: pH: 7.6; Ammonia: slightly
under .25ppm;
Nitrite: .25ppm; Nitrate: 5 -10ppm
5G PWC @ 1PM
6G PWC @ 11:30PM
maintaining salt at 1tsp/G
Added 1tsp of Amquel+ to tank (1/2 dose, because I don't have an
airstone)
Lucille's Septicemia unchanged

I'll be going to the pet store tomorrow and will get the Prime and also some Dechlor so I don't have to use my Brita filter. I keep telling myself to get it and I keep forgetting.

DebR and the Three Goldfish
(CB, Lucille, and Raven)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Raymond Wetzel" <sevenspringss@...>
To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 12:51 PM
Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Newbie with a fungus problem? Q FOR RAY

Again, good to see their size difference is now noticeable. You can grow fish from small and their day to day growth is hardly obvious. Then, all of a sudden you might take note of the difference, when seeing them from a different perspective (and that might not only be from a different viewing angle). Prime would be the better choice to use, and you wouldn't have to worry about any partial oxygen depletion affecting the fish as a result of it.
With your recent PWC's, you tank should be fairly free of leftover medications; this should help in giving the fish some needed stimulation (like a breath of fresh water) before medicating with the PraziPro. No doubt now, as the fish are filling out their 20 gallon tank, that you can see why a much larger tank will be needed. Always nice to see fish thriving, which their growth often indicates. Any improvement in the red streaking of the fins? Am hoping that eliminating the free-ammonia (NH3) by converting it to NH4+ will address that issue, as it was that which brought it on, but if it
becomes necessary Maracyn II (Minocycline) can be used to clear up
bacteria hemorrhagic septicemia, although we'd rather not go that route right now unless absolutely necessary. As per usual, keep us posted. Ray

--- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>
, "Menagerie_Manager"
menagerie_manager@&gt; wrote:
Well, if I'm going to want an airstone to feel safe using the Amquel+, I might as well price the Prime while I'm there. No connection between the
Amquel+ and the fish growing. That was a side note. I've been so focused
on the health problems that I hadn't noticed the growth until a couple of
days ago, when Lucille cruised past CB and I thought, "Wow! She has got to be three times her size!" That's mass-wise, not length-wise. I think she's
about half an inch or so longer than CB, but all three were about the same
size when they arrived. But then I stood back and looked at all three and
realized that even CB has grown some in the last month. They were in a 10G tank for the last year, so now they're filling out their 20G tank.

DebR and the Three Goldfish
(CB, Lucille, and Raven)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Raymond Wetzel" <sevenspringss@>
To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 6:51 AM
Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Newbie with a fungus problem? Q FOR RAY
Lowering the water level will help increase the aeration as the outflow from your filter will have a further distance to fall, and while helpful, may not necessarily create near as much surface circulation as would an airstone.
I do not understand what you're saying. What does using Amquel+ or its often needed increase in aeration have anything to do with your fish growing? I don't see any connection here except that if you don't use Amquel+ to convert your ammonia (and increase the aeration as needed) you fish may not live long enough to continue to grow.
I also don't understand the sudden awareness that your fish are growing now; since when have you suddenly become aware that they're growing? Since you first started posting their problems, or since you lowered their water level, or since you started your PWC regimen or since you started removing the salt (???); I don't understand how you mean this. Unless stunted, under normal conditions and with proper maintenance, fish continue to slowly grow constantly -- even if imperceptibly.

My first choice would have been SeaChem's Prime for use as a Chloramine neutralizer, but with your already having Amquel+ I couldn't in good conscious send you out to specifically just get Prime. Prime has never been seen to cause a problem (as far as I've ever become aware of) in the way of deceased fish as a result of using it, regardless of any manner of aeration.

On the other hand, while the original formula Amquel (note -- no +) which has been discontinued never created a problem, this newer formula of Amquel+ has been reported to lead to many fish deaths when even slightly overdosed -- and there's no way of knowing exactly how much is needed when the water company may increase or decrease their usual level of chloramine at any time. After learning how this new formula works, it has been recommended to increase the aeration when using Amquel+ as a precaution, even though it may not normally be needed. There have been far fewer fish death reports as a result of this; and I would not rely solely on the relatively smaller benefit of lowering the water level for this increase in aeration. Ray

In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com&gt; , "Menagerie_Manager"
menagerie_manager@&gt; wrote:

I totally understand. I think it was after I first mentioned having used the Amquel+ a couple of times that Lenny suggested I lower the water
levels to get better aeration. I'll use it, but only as a last resort, since the goldfish are growing, now.

DebR and the Three Goldfish
(CB, Lucille, and Raven)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Raymond Wetzel" <sevenspringss@>
To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 1:10 AM
Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Newbie with a fungus problem? Q FOR
RAY
Yes, Amquel+ is quite safe to use with PraziPro. Its strictly a
chloramine neutralizer which breaks the chlorine -- ammonia bond
and converts the ammonia to ammonium. Increased amounts are best
used with the benefit of added aeration which aids in the safety of process of this conversion, whether or not its used in concert with anything else. I mention this as, with just the use of Amquel+ alone in normal usage for chloramine neutralizing, there have been reports at times of fish dying from the use of this product, when the oxygen balance hasn't been maintained during its use. The ammonia -- ammonium converting process uses oxygen. Unless the chloramine added to your water is excessive and you need to use more Amquel+ than one normally might, it should be totally safe, but I mention using an airstone only to play it safe to cover any possibility and to ensure adequate O2 levels (I like safeguards -- even if not needed).
Ray
--- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com&gt; , "Menagerie_Manager"
menagerie_manager@&gt; wrote:

That link I sent for you to see my salt levels is just a link to the AquaticLife Files Page's "Water Chemistry" folder. None of the other files on that page are mine. I don't know enough about fish to be writing info sheets. lol!
I do have Amquel+ on hand. I'll use it if 2 PWCs a day doesn't do the
job. Is it safe to use along with the PraziPro? (which should have arrived
by today, but I guess Christmas has the mail slowed down)

OMG! I cannot believe how HUGE Lucille is getting! She's almost twice
as long as CB, now, and absolutely gorgeous. Gotta get that big tank as
soon as possible.

DebR and the Three Goldfish
(CB, Lucille, and Raven)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Raymond Wetzel" <sevenspringss@>
To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 12:13 AM
Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Newbie with a fungus problem? Q FOR
RAY
Good to see that the white spot on Raven has cleared up; one less thing to have to worry about. Goldfish should have no osmotic problems at 1 tsp/G salt, and there's no need to add any more if the septicemia gets worse. One tsp/G is not much more than the token recommended level of 0.6 tsp/G when we say to use 1 Tbs/5 Gallons when treating Ich -- for even the most salt-intolerant fish, like Cory's and Tetra's. With nitrogenous waste still present in your water column, I would not reduce your salt level much lower.

When opening the link for your files to check out your Excel Sheet for salt levels, I noticed one of your other files with a heading, "Should I Change The Water During The Initial Nitrogen Cycle," to which the opening statement was, "Not if you can avoid it." This of course is quite true, as the more water you change (and the less ammonia and nitrite are available for the nitrifying bacteria), the longer it will take to cycle the tank. But there comes a time, if these consistent levels affect the health of your fish, that changing out water can no longer be avoided. This is primarily why we advocate fish-less cycling -- it can otherwise rough on your fish.

There is a helpful point I left out from my lost post only as I had forgotten to include it again (and just another reason why I hate losing a post), which should be useful to you. To at least address the toxic issues of your ammonia poisoning, this waste product being the more toxic of the two (ammonia and nitrite), by using Prime (SeaChem) or Amquel +, this ammonia will convert to harmless ammonium which will still be used by your nitrifying bacteria. This should help if you feel you need to reduce the salt level somewhat to avoid osmotic problems, as well as not going too ballistic in changing out water -- while increased PWC's are encouraged to further reduce your nitrite, this is not quite as toxic as ammonia -- besides,
your cycle should be near complete.

In looking over your salt reduction chart, it's now more understandable when you say you added salt while at the same time reducing the total salt level. Had you not added back the 1 tsp/G of salt while doing the PWC at the 2.29 tsp/G level, it would have dropped to 1.91 - 1.92 tsp/G instead of 2.08 tsp/G. I know you've since done more PWC's, but I can see by this exactly where the salt went each time. Ray

> > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , "Menagerie_Manager"
> > > > <menagerie_manager@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > OK, I'll be maintaining salt at 1tsp/G unless CB has
> > trouble
> > > > with
> > > > > osmotic problems or Lucille's septicemia gets worse. I
guess
> if
> > > > they both
> > > > > get worse I'll have to separate one out.
> > > > >
> > > > > The white spot on Raven has gone away, so I'll wait on
> the
> > > > Acriflavin.
> > > > >
> > > > > Rather than try and explain verbally where I am with
the
> > salt
> > > > level and
> > > > > how I got there, I've updated my Excel sheet:
> > > > > http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/AquaticLife/files/Water%
<http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/AquaticLife/files/Water%>
> > > > 20Chemistry/
> > > > > scroll down to "DebRs Salt levels.xls".
> > > > >
> > > > > I'll start doing 5G PWCs twice a day and see if that
gets
> > the
> > > > ammonia
> > > > > and nitrate down.
> > > > >
> > > > > DebR and the Three Goldfish
> > > > > (CB, Lucille, and Raven)
> > > > > (I really do want my mommy, now)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > -------------message inserted for continuity-------------
> > > > >
> > > > > Monday Afternoon Check in (Day 21 of Salt - Day 6 of
reducing
> > it)
> > > > >
> > > > > Oh snap! I just came to check my email *after* doing
the
> > > > PWC. The
> > > > > salt is now down to 1tsp/G. I really think I needed to
lower
> it
> > > > yesterday
> > > > > just to keep CB alive. She's eating, now, and no longer
> sitting
> > > on
> > > > the
> > > > > bottom of the tank looking like death warmed over. Lucille
is
> > the
> > > > stronger
> > > > > and larger of the three fish, so, unless the septicemia get
> > worse,
> > > > I'll
> > > > > leave it at 1tsp/G and just try to get the ammonia and
nitrite
> > > > lower. Will
> > > > > the zeolite help with this level of salt in the tank?
> > > > >
> > > > > - Tank readings @ noon: pH:7.6 (anything I can do to lower
> > > this?);
> > > > > Ammonia: slightly under .25; Nitrite: .25 (if my baseline
> > hadn't
> > > > been zero,
> > > > > I'd think the test wasn't working right); Nitrate: 10
> > > > > - 3G PWC @ 1pm
> > > > >
> > > > > DebR and the Three Goldfish
> > > > > (CB, Lucille, and Raven)
> > > > >
> > > > > -------------End of message inserted for continuity---------
--
> --
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Raymond Wetzel" <sevenspringss@>
> > > > > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> >
> > > > > Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 2:15 PM
> > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Newbie with a fungus problem? Q
FOR
> > RAY
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Hello Deb, As mentioned in my previous post, I intended on
> > doing
> > > a
> > > > > follow-up, but wanted to get that info to you ASAP. I did
> want
> > to
> > > > > address this post of yours from late (11:20PM) Saturday
night,
> > > which
> > > > > I saw yesterday/Sunday morning. I have not replied to any
of
> > your
> > > > > more recent messages between when I posted to you last,
around
> > > noon
> > > > > on Friday, and this message of yours directed at me as you
> were
> > > > > directing your messages elsewhere and being assisted
> accordingly
> > > (I
> > > > > don't like to meddle). When I did see your message, I wrote
> > you a
> > > > > long detailed reply to all matters of it, and I was about 2
> > > seconds
> > > > > away from sending it when my power went out -- the storm
here
> > was
> > > > > pretty intense. Always my luck though when attempting to
send
> > > > > something I spent a lot of time on, but this time I can't
> blame
> > my
> > > > > lousy 'putor (which any other time is the usual cause).
> > > > >
> > > > > I doubt I'll remember all I wanted to advise you of, as
that's
> > > > > normally what happens in these instances (nothing new to
me!),
> > but
> > > > > I'll try. For starters, I wanted to mention that it never
> hurts
> > > to
> > > > > feed pea meat, as you've been doing, in hopes that might
> correct
> > > any
> > > > > constipation issues (and hopefully might be the root cause
of
> > the
> > > > > problem), even though that's doesn't appear to be the
problem
> > > here.
> > > > >
> > > > > It's encouraging to note that CB is acting a bit better,
which
> > > > > indicates he still has reserve strength (always a good
sign).
> > On
> > > > the
> > > > > salt issue, I noticed on 12/18 (Thursday) that the salt
> content
> > > was
> > > > > at 2.75 tsp per Gallon, and after you did the PWC around
Noon
> > that
> > > > > day, it was at 2.29 tsp/G. At that time you stated you
> intended
> > > on
> > > > > holding the salt at around 2 tsp/G. I hadn't seen anything
on
> > any
> > > > > PWC you may have done on 12/19 (nothing posted on any PWC's
> that
> > > > > day).
> > > > >
> > > > > Your next post seems somewhat conflicting and a bit
confusing
> > when
> > > > > your mention of a PWC on Saturday 12/20 stated that you
> > REPLACED 1
> > > > > tsp of salt per Gallon, yet the salt level DECREASED to 2.08
> > > > > Tsp/Gallon. Looks like you were adding salt, but then the
> > > > > measurement comes out to be less -- I have to assume you
> decided
> > > not
> > > > > to add any salt. You did state you intended to hold the
salt
> a
> > 2
> > > > > tsp/G., which I was about to suggest, but I see you made
> another
> > > PWC
> > > > > since then, dropping the salt content to 1.73 tsp/G at 11:00
> PM
> > > > > Saturday night. I would have told you not to reduce it any
> less
> > > > than
> > > > > that (maybe even get it back up to 2 tsp/G), but I had no
> power
> > > > > here. I see since then, you did another PWC yesterday,
> reducing
> > > the
> > > > > salt even further, to 1.2 tsp/G; I hope you have not taken
out
> > any
> > > > > more salt than this.
> > > > >
> > > > > For any slight fungus issues that might remain, you can use
> the
> > > > > Acriflavin (API's Fungus Cure) I recommended, which is
> extremely
> > > > mild
> > > > > and will not add any stress of being "over-medicated." I
hope
> > all
> > > > > fungal issues are cleared up at this time though. On the
post
> > of
> > > > > mine on salt (message # 34503 -- 12/17/08 1:20PM) which you
> were
> > > > > unsure of, you might want to refer back to that, especially
as
> > it
> > > > > contained other info. I did say that -- if you still see
some
> > > > > fungus, you could give them another treatment of Fungus
Clear
> if
> > > it
> > > > > looked threatening, while you waited for the PraziPro (which
> > might
> > > > > get to you today or tomorrow). At this same time though, I
> said
> > > the
> > > > > salt can be reduced. Adding to this, the fish would enjoy a
> day
> > > of
> > > > > clean water (the salt can remain at its present level, but
the
> > > > > previous meds should be eliminated) before treating with the
> > > > PraziPro.
> > > > >
> > > > > The last thing I wanted to mention was that there is no
other
> > > > > medication you could use in place of the PraziPro -- at
least
> > > > nothing
> > > > > near as good that would help with their type of internal
> > parasite
> > > > > issue. Even if there were (which there isn't), it wouldn't
> pay
> > to
> > > > > start messing with all kinds of other meds and then still
use
> > > > > PraziPro on top of it all. that's about all for now. You
> will
> > > have
> > > > > to now definitely do larger PWC's to reduce your ammonia and
> > > nitrite
> > > > > (while keeping up your salt content), as you can't have
these
> > > levels
> > > > > remaining the same, at around 0.25 ppm. The longer these
> > > > nitrogenous
> > > > > wastes stay at this level, the more toxic they will become
to
> > your
> > > > > fish -- which is why they're starting to get septicemia
> (right,
> > > you
> > > > > can't use an ammonia absorbing zeolite if you have salt in
the
> > > > > tank). Do several PWC's per day if necessary to get these
> > levels
> > > > > down. Ray
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , "Menagerie_Manager"
> > > > > <menagerie_manager@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Actually, I don't have a specific LFS, other than
> > PetSmart
> > > > and
> > > > > I don't ask them for any advice on anything except for where
> to
> > > find
> > > > > stuff in the store. There was a good one not too far away,
> but
> > it
> > > > > went under last summer sometime. I know of another one
> nearby,
> > > but
> > > > > it's a dirty little place and I doubt they have a website.
I
> > was
> > > > > just wondering if there was anything that most fish stores
> carry
> > > > that
> > > > > would help, as the PraziPro didn't arrive today.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I've given the pea meat at least three times in the
last
> > two
> > > > > weeks. I was just thinking about trying it again. CB
> actually
> > > came
> > > > > to the top for flakes tonight, instead of just sitting there
> and
> > > > > maybe picking at whatever happened to fall nearby.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > As far as the salt, I can't find the post, but I
> thought
> > > that
> > > > > Ray had said it was ok to give other treatments along with
> salt.
> > > I
> > > > > just had to make sure the malachite green was gone before
> giving
> > > the
> > > > > Fungus Clear and that the Fungus Clear is gone before I do
the
> > > > > PraziPro. I was only lowering the salt to counter the
osmotic
> > > > stress
> > > > > that I was seeing. I don't want the fungus to get a
foothold
> > > again
> > > > > before I can get rid of the parasites. SHOULD I CONTINUE TO
> > LOWER
> > > > > THE SALT, RAY??? I haven't done my PWC, yet, for today.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > DebR and the Three Goldfish
> > > > > > (CB, Lucille, and Raven)
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: Lenny V. aka GoldLenny
> > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > > Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 4:08 PM
> > > > > > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: Newbie with a fungus
> problem?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What's available at your LFS? It's hard to suggest
> anything
> > > > else
> > > > > without
> > > > > > knowing what's available. Do they have a website?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Have you tried feeding the green pea "meat"? Besides
the
> > > > > potential for
> > > > > > internal parasites, there's also the chance of
> > constipation...
> > > > > and it's also
> > > > > > a good thing to feed fancy goldfish green pea "meat"
once
> a
> > > week
> > > > > or so just
> > > > > > to keep them "regular" since they are prone to digestive
> > > system
> > > > > disorders..
> > > > > > which often leads to swim bladder disorders.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Going from memory, you started off with Malachite Green
> for
> > a
> > > > few
> > > > > days which
> > > > > > wasn't working. Then the salt and didn't you also do
the
> > > > Maracyn
> > > > > 2? And
> > > > > > then the Jungle Fungus Clear... right? Why did you add
> salt
> > > to
> > > > > this last
> > > > > > PWC? I thought we were phasing the salt out with each
> PWC?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Before starting the PraziPro, you need to get rid of the
> > rest
> > > of
> > > > > the meds.
> > > > > > I'm concerned the fish are going to get overly stressed
> with
> > > too
> > > > > much meds.
> > > > > > When I've had sick fish to treat, I usually give them a
> day
> > of
> > > > > just fresh
> > > > > > water between treatments to give their kidneys a chance
to
> > > rest
> > > > > between
> > > > > > treatments... kind of like, there's nothing like good
> clean
> > > > fresh
> > > > > air for
> > > > > > us.. same goes for the fish with good clean fresh water.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You can run fresh carbon in your filter to filter out
any
> > meds
> > > > > that are
> > > > > > missed by PWC's but carbon will not filter out salt so
> only
> > > the
> > > > > PWC's will
> > > > > > slowly reduce the salt.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Lenny Vasbinder
> > > > > > Fish Blog - http://GoldLenny.blogspot.com
<http://GoldLenny.blogspot.com>
> > > > > > (Links to any articles referenced in above reply are
> listed
> > on
> > > > > the right
> > > > > > side, alphabetically under Labels and also under
Archives
> by
> > > > > Year, Month)
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
> > > > > > Behalf Of Menagerie_Manager
> > > > > > Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 1:31 PM
> > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Newbie with a fungus
> problem?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Saturday Afternoon Check in (Day 19 of Salt)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > - 3G PWC last night @ 11PM (replaced 1T salt - level is
> now
> > > > > 2.08tsp/G)
> > > > > > - Tank Readings @ noon today: pH: 7.6; Ammonia:
> > under .25ppm;
> > > > > Nitrite:
> > > > > > .25ppm; Nitrate: 10 to 15
> > > > > > - CB has pretty much stopped eating. I'm still offering
> > Tetra
> > > > > flakes,
> > > > > > because when she does eat, that's what she goes for.
Maybe
> > the
> > > > > carbs will
> > > > > > keep her going until the PraziPro arrives and gets a
> chance
> > to
> > > > > work. If it
> > > > > > doesn't arrive today, Is there something I can get at a
> LFS
> > > that
> > > > > might help
> > > > > > until Monday?
> > > > > > - Raven is looking stronger and her appetite is very
good.
> > > > > There's a tiny
> > > > > > white area on her dorsal fin that I'll keep an eye on.
> > Adding
> > > > > anything to
> > > > > > the tank before I treat the parasites will probably
finish
> > CB
> > > > off.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > DebR and the Three Goldfish
> > > > > > (CB, Lucille, and Raven)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: Menagerie_Manager
> > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:AquaticLife%
> > > > > 40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > > Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 9:59 AM
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Newbie with a fungus
> problem?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The goldfish spent about a year in a 10G tank before
> coming
> > > here
> > > > > to the 20G.
> > > > > > There was a 4th goldfish until sometime over the summer
> when
> > > the
> > > > > previous
> > > > > > owner's grandson poured hot candle wax into the tank.
> Since
> > > > these
> > > > > three
> > > > > > weren't affected, I think the other one probably ate
some
> of
> > > the
> > > > > wax.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Lucille is definitely longer than the other two, but she
> may
> > > be
> > > > a
> > > > > bit
> > > > > > swollen, too. Whether that's from the salt or the
> parasites,
> > > > > remains to be
> > > > > > seen.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Last night (ok, 2:00 this morning), I did one final
check
> on
> > > the
> > > > > fish before
> > > > > > going to bed. they were at the front of the tank,
looking
> at
> > > the
> > > > > Christmas
> > > > > > tree lights. They must be feeling a little bit better to
> > even
> > > > > care about
> > > > > > that.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > DebR and the Three Goldfish
> > > > > > (CB, Lucille, and Raven)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: Lenny V. aka GoldLenny
> > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:AquaticLife%
> > > > > 40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > > Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 3:00 AM
> > > > > > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: Newbie with a fungus
> problem?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > As far as Lucille being larger. It could be from water
> > > retention
> > > > > due to
> > > > > > osmoregulatory problems... hopefully not... or if it is,
> > > > > hopefully she'll
> > > > > > start to expel the water as the meds are reduced.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It could also be that Lucille was not as affected by
> > stunting
> > > so
> > > > > it wasn't
> > > > > > permanent for her... so now that they are in a larger
tank
> > (or
> > > > > same size
> > > > > > with frequent PWC's, which simulates a larger body of
> > water),
> > > > she
> > > > > is growing
> > > > > > and just happens to be growing faster than the other
two.
> > > > > Hopefully, they
> > > > > > all recover from the earlier likely stunting issues.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I just peeked at your first message and the answers
wasn't
> > > there
> > > > > and I don't
> > > > > > recall the issue coming up since but how long were the
> three
> > > > > goldfish in the
> > > > > > previous owners care? (Trying to determine an
approximate
> > age)
> > > > > What size
> > > > > > tank were they in? Is the current 20G the same tank they
> > have
> > > > > been in from
> > > > > > the beginning?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Lenny Vasbinder
> > > > > > Fish Blog - http://GoldLenny.blogspot.com
<http://GoldLenny.blogspot.com>
> > > > > <http://GoldLenny.blogspot.com <http://GoldLenny.blogspot.com> >
> > > > > > (Links to any articles referenced in above reply are
> listed
> > on
> > > > > the right
> > > > > > side, alphabetically under Labels and also under
Archives
> by
> > > > > Year, Month)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:AquaticLife%
> > > > > 40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > > [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:AquaticLife%
> > > > > 40yahoogroups.com> ]
> > > > > > On
> > > > > > Behalf Of Menagerie_Manager
> > > > > > Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2008 10:52 PM
> > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:AquaticLife%
> > > > > 40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Newbie with a fungus
> problem?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thursday Night Check in (Day 17 of Salt - Day 2 of under
> > > 3tsp/G)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > - 3G PWC @ 3pm (salt now at 2.29tsp/G)
> > > > > > - Tank readings @ 11pm: pH: 7.6; Ammonia: bet .25
> > and .50ppm;
> > > > > Nitrite:
> > > > > > .25ppm; Nitrate: about 15ppm
> > > > > > - The fish are acting a bit more energetic today, esp.
> since
> > > the
> > > > > last PWC.
> > > > > > I'm thinking of holding the salt at 2tsp/G to keep any
> > fungus
> > > at
> > > > > bay until I
> > > > > > can treat with the PraziPro.
> > > > > > - CB still breathing heavy and doing the
spitting/choking
> > > thing
> > > > > occasionally
> > > > > > - These guys/gals were more or less the same size when
> they
> > > > > arrived about 3
> > > > > > weeks ago. Lucille now looks quite large next to Raven
and
> > CB.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > DebR and the Three Goldfish
> > > > > > (CB, Lucille, and Raven)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: Menagerie_Manager
> > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:AquaticLife%
> > > > > 40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > > Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2008 12:03 PM
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Newbie with a fungus
> problem?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > That's good to hear about the cycling.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'm fairly sure the salt is at 2.75 tsp/G right now, and
> > will
> > > go
> > > > > down to
> > > > > > 2.29tsp/G with today's 3G PWC. See my Excel file, "DebRs
> > Salt
> > > > > Levels" for
> > > > > > how I'm figuring the concentration of salt in the water,
> > since
> > > > > there isn't
> > > > > > really 20G in the tank right now.
> > > > > >
> http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/AquaticLife/files/Water%
<http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/AquaticLife/files/Water%>
> > > > > 20Chemistry/
> > > > > >
> <http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/AquaticLife/files/Water%
<http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/AquaticLife/files/Water%>
> > > > > 20Chemistry/>
> > > > > >
> <http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/AquaticLife/files/Water%
<http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/AquaticLife/files/Water%>
> > > > > 20Chemistry/
> > > > > >
> <http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/AquaticLife/files/Water%
<http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/AquaticLife/files/Water%>
> > > > > 20Chemistry/> >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'm seeing the slow gulping with CB, not all the time,
but
> > > after
> > > > > exertion
> > > > > > (eating, etc). But what I'm guessing is choking is a
> shaking
> > > of
> > > > > the head,
> > > > > > backing up and spitting action, kind of like when a fish
> is
> > > > > eating and
> > > > > > breaks the food up by spitting it out repeatedly, only
> she's
> > > not
> > > > > eating at
> > > > > > the time.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > DebR and the Three Goldfish
> > > > > > (CB, Lucille, and Raven)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: Lenny V. aka GoldLenny
> > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:AquaticLife%
> > > > > 40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > > Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2008 7:27 AM
> > > > > > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: Newbie with a fungus
> problem?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The climbing nitrate level is just the result of your
> > nitrogen
> > > > > cycle nearly
> > > > > > completing. Before, you were having to do PWC's to keep
> the
> > > > > ammonia/nitrite
> > > > > > levels low, apparently, you may now have nearly enough
> > > > nitrifying
> > > > > bacteria
> > > > > > growing in your filter, etc., to handle the
> ammonia/nitrite
> > so
> > > > > you should
> > > > > > soon see both of them staying at 0.0ppm and you'll do
> PWC's
> > to
> > > > > keep nitrates
> > > > > > in check and also to replace/dilute the dirty water.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > OK. Presuming you were pretty close to 0.3% (3 teaspoons
> per
> > > > > gallon) of
> > > > > > salt, changing out 3G (or 15% of the 20G tank) would
bring
> > it
> > > > > down to
> > > > > > 0.285%. So, each time you do a 3G PWC with clear water,
> > you'll
> > > > > bring the
> > > > > > current number down by 15%, so the next 3G will bring
the
> > > 0.285%
> > > > > down to
> > > > > > 0.242% (multiply the current number by .85 to get the
new
> > > > > number). You will
> > > > > > see a diminishing return with each PWC but after about 5
> of
> > > the
> > > > > 3G PWC's,
> > > > > > you could increase the PWC amount to 25% (5G). After
> about 5
> > > of
> > > > > those, you
> > > > > > will have negligible levels (less than 0.05%) which
would
> no
> > > > > longer be
> > > > > > providing any kind of therapeutic benefits or causing
any
> > > kinds
> > > > of
> > > > > > osmoregulatory issues.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The "choking thing"... does it look more like yawning?
Or
> a
> > > slow
> > > > > gulping
> > > > > > motion?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Lenny Vasbinder
> > > > > > Fish Blog - http://GoldLenny.blogspot.com
<http://GoldLenny.blogspot.com>
> > > > > <http://GoldLenny.blogspot.com <http://GoldLenny.blogspot.com> >
> > > > > > <http://GoldLenny.blogspot.com <http://GoldLenny.blogspot.com>
> > > <http://GoldLenny.blogspot.com <http://GoldLenny.blogspot.com> > >
> > > > > > (Links to any articles referenced in above reply are
> listed
> > on
> > > > > the right
> > > > > > side, alphabetically under Labels and also under
Archives
> by
> > > > > Year, Month)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:AquaticLife%
> > > > > 40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > > [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:AquaticLife%
> > > > > 40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> ]
> > > > > > On
> > > > > > Behalf Of Menagerie_Manager
> > > > > > Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2008 12:23 AM
> > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:AquaticLife%
> > > > > 40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Newbie with a fungus
> problem?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Wednesday Night Check in (Day 16 of Salt)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > - 3G PWC @ about noon (did not treat replacement water
> with
> > > > salt)
> > > > > > - Salt now approx 2.75 tsp/G
> > > > > > - 11pm Tank Readings: pH: I'm going to say 7.6, and
that's
> > > > > probably what
> > > > > > it's been all along; Ammonia: .25ppm; Nitrite: slightly
> > > > > over .25ppm;
> > > > > > Nitrate: 15 - 20 (kind of a surprise after yesterday's
> level
> > > and
> > > > > today's
> > > > > > PWC)
> > > > > > - Not seeing any fungus right now. Only extreme
exhaustion
> > and
> > > > > that choking
> > > > > > thing that CB does. I saw Lucille do it once this
> afternoon.
> > > > > > - The PraziPro should arrive any day.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > DebR and the Three Goldfish
> > > > > > (CB, Lucille, and Raven)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: Raymond Wetzel
> > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:AquaticLife%
> > > > > 40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 1:20 PM
> > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Newbie with a fungus problem?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > With your removal of the Fungus Clear, and your lowering
> the
> > > > salt
> > > > > > level, I trust most or all of the fungus has been
> > eliminated.
> > > > > When
> > > > > > are you expecting the PraziPro? If not for a while, and
> > > > > especially
> > > > > > if you still see some fungus, I'd give them another
> > treatment
> > > of
> > > > > > Fungus Clear if it looks threatening, but the salt can
be
> > > > > reduced.
> > > > > > The fungus should be gone right now though; if there's
> just
> > a
> > > > bit
> > > > > > remaining, you can add some acriflavin to the water (in
> the
> > > form
> > > > > of
> > > > > > API's liquid Fungus Cure) which is very mild.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If the fungus is gone, just wait for the PraziPro to
start
> > > > > treating
> > > > > > them for the internal issues. CB may be having trouble
> > > adjusting
> > > > > > from flakes to pellets, if this food is new but often,
> fish
> > > will
> > > > > > reject any kind of food as their internal infections
> worsen
> > > and
> > > > > will
> > > > > > act in the manner you're describing.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I see your nitrite is up, unless that figure is a result
> of
> > > your
> > > > > not
> > > > > > being able to determine the color chart match. I also
> > noticed
> > > > > your
> > > > > > two pH readings -- the results received from both test
> kits
> > > > (high
> > > > > > range pH and low range pH). In any case, it looks like
> more
> > > > > frequent
> > > > > > PWC's are in order; I would not do larger ones as you
> don't
> > > want
> > > > > to
> > > > > > reduce the salt too fast at any one time. Ray
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:AquaticLife%
> > > > > 40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> ,
> > > > > > "Menagerie_Manager"
> > > > > > <menagerie_manager@> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Tuesday Night Check in (Day 15 of Salt) (Removing
> > remainder
> > > of
> > > > > > Fungus Clear with carbon filter)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > - Ph: 7.5 or almost 7.8 (see my post on lighting and
> test
> > > > > > results); Ammonia: .25ppm; Nitrite: .25ppm; Nitrate:
10 -
> > > 15ppm
> > > > > > (depending on lighting)
> > > > > > > - Lucille is sitting most of the time at the bottom.
CB
> > and
> > > > > > Raven, also, although they're a bit more active than
they
> > have
> > > > > been.
> > > > > > > - CB still breaths a bit heavy and sometimes acts
likes
> > > she's
> > > > > > trying to spit something out (backing up and shaking
> head).
> > I
> > > > did
> > > > > > see her spit out a piece of food one time that she was
> doing
> > > > > this.
> > > > > > Could she be having trouble adjusting to the Omega One
> > pellets
> > > > > from
> > > > > > the Tetra flakes?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I think it may be time to lower the salt level some.
> What
> > > I'm
> > > > > > seeing now, other than the stringy white and clear poop,
> > > pretty
> > > > > much
> > > > > > fits the descriptions I've read of osmotic stress, and
I'm
> > not
> > > > > sure
> > > > > > how much more CB can take.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > DebR and the Three Goldfish
> > > > > > > (CB, Lucille, and Raven)
> > > > > > >

Wednesday, December 17, 2008

Tetra Easy Balance With Nitraban

On another blog and in various forums, I read some good but mostly bad about this product, Tetra Easy Balance With Nitraban. Here is one such blog about it, that claimed it was good, and my reply...

The blogger asked:

"Whats in it?... I had a number of concerns on this front...
The most that Tetra will say is that EB contains “essential elements” and vitamins which are often absent from tapwater. “Essential elements” I take to mean minerals and trace elements, and I have myself confirmed that their claim that it contains all of the nutrients needed for plant growth. I have never fertilised my aquaria in two years."

And my reply:

Here is "What's in it?"... and more... from a recent post of mine in another forum.

Here is a snip from Tetra's website information on their product...

"Tetra Easy Balance: Change 50-75% of your aquarium water at least once every 6 months, provided Easy Balance® has been added as recommended and the aquarium is other wise properly maintained."

When I first heard about Tetra Easy Balance a couple of years ago, I was very leary about the fact that it was advertising that people could go six months without doing a partial water change... a MAJOR piece of BAD ADVICE, IMO. I don't think that any company involved in the fish keeping industry should be giving that kind of advice while promoting weekly dosing of their chemical compound.

I kept trying to find out what was in the product and it took quite a while to find the MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet) on the product since Tetra does not make it available on their website. I eventually found the MSDS on WalMart.com as they have the MSDS' for all products that they sell available on their website... which is what all companies are supposed to do.

Here is the link to the Walmart.com MSDS for Tetra Easy Balance. http://msds.walmartstores.com/cache/2258_1.pdf

Here is a snip from the MSDS list of "dangerous components:"
Sodium Hydroxide (up to) 2.5%
Tartaric Acid (up to) 2.5%
Formaldehyde (up to) 2.5%

The other ingredients are Sucrose and Water (89.4%) and an undisclosed 3.1% of something.. or maybe it's 3.1% Sucrose but the MSDS doesn't clarify what the missing 3.1% is made up of.

I am still unsure whether this is the MSDS for Tetra Easy Balance with Nitraban or an earlier version of EB (without Nitraban if there was such a version) as I have not been able to find an MSDS with the "full name" listed... only "Easy Balance".

The other potentially very serious negative about the product is that the "nitraban" is actually some kind of little pellet that gets distributed into the gravel and then these pellets dissolve. If you have foraging fish like goldfish, certain cichlids, etc., they could easily ingest these pellets and who knows what kinds of side effects that would have on the long term health of the fish.

There is a forum thread that I read a while back about a guppy tank where the guppies did not breed or have babies even once during the time of the Easy Balance dosing on the tank.

IMO, anything that stops guppies from breeding has to be a serious chemical compound that can't be good for our fish. If Tetra was to re-market the product as a fish birth control and give full disclosure of the negatives of the product, then I may not have as many complaints about the product.

Hope this helps.

Lenny Vasbinder
Fish Blog - http://goldlenny.blogspot.com/

Sunday, December 14, 2008

Book Review - "The 101 Best Tropical Fishes" & Tropical Fish Hobbyist Magazine

Earlier this year, I switched from the paper Tropical Fish Hobbyist Magazine to the digital subscription... which was only $1.00 a year... but after getting tired of reading the magazine online, which isn't as conducive to my reading throne.. lol.., I decided to switch back to the paper magazine. As part of signing up for a two year subscription, I got a free 2009 Fish Calendar and also got to choose from a couple of books. I chose "The 101 Best Tropical Fishes" (Plus 33 Species To Avoid) by Kathleen Wood.

http://www.amazon.com/101-Best-Tropical-Fishes-Fascinating/dp/1890087939
At first glance, it's a pocket sized 4" x 8" plastic coated soft cover book with 191 pages. It's well illustrated with profiles on each of the fish. As I started looking at the introduction and first chapters where they talk about tank sizes, etc., I started getting that queasy feeling. They have a section called "Model Community Tanks". I'm only going to list two out of the five examples for 10G tanks to see what you all think. They do have the scientific names next to the common names but I did not include them for most of the below since they are easily identified by their common names.
--------
10-Gallon Peaceful Global Community
Top Swimmers
2 Dwarf Gouramis (male-female pair)
Midwater Swimmers
5-7 Glowlight Tetras
Bottom Dwellers
3 Albino Aeneus Corydoras
2 Otocinclus vittatus
--------
10-Gallon Amazon Quiet Pool
Top Swimmers
3 Marbled Hatchetfish
Midwater Swimmers
12 Neon Tetras
Bottom Dwellers
3 Panda Corydoras
1 Clown Pleco
--------
In the above example, a Clown Pleco reaches 4" to 5" and is very wide bodied, so it's not like a 4" torpedo shaped fish... and it is an eating-pooping machine like most plecos. Just the Clown Pleco would be a big bioload for a 10G tank, IMO... but maybe a small school of Neons would be OK with it. Normally, a 4" to 5" fish should not be kept in a 10G tank but at least a Clown Pleco isn't a big swimmer so the limited tank size won't affect it as much. I just wouldn't do it as a planned stocking.
They also had a livebearer tank with 6 fancy guppies (2 males - 4 females), 3 swordtails (1 male - 2 females) and 3 Bronze Corydoras.
Now, personally, I would consider these examples as VERY overstocked... especially considering what would happen within a month (or even days) in the livebearer tank... but what do some of you other experts out there think???
Should this book be considered just another crappy book that leads so many newbie's into tragedy... like so many other books that I've seen or am I just being too cautious about overstocking?
The article on my blog for "10 Gallon Tank Stocking Suggestions" doesn't come close to these levels of stocking for a 10G tank... but then the fish will be much happier and the hobbyist won't be stuck with tons of tank maintenance, fish health issues, etc., by following my guidelines versus what is found in many books.
Compared to Aquarium Fish Magazine, which has some really BAD info in it at times, Tropical Fish Hobbyist Magazine is a MUCH BETTER magazine but I'm not too happy about them promoting the above book.
Links to subscribe to TFH, get a FREE no-obligation copy of TFH Magazine or subscribe to the digital version, go to the "Free Offers" link on this blog (see link under Labels).
Lenny Vasbinder
Fish Blog - http://goldlenny.blogspot.com/ (Links to any articles referenced in above reply are listed on the right side, alphabetically under Labels and also under Archives by Year, Month)

Thursday, November 13, 2008

The main reason why I DO NOT LIKE Tetra (the Company) FW: Monthly Aquarium Maintenance

The below email is a monthly e-minder that I signed up for with Tetra, years ago, to see what it was and I never did unsubscribe but every time I get it, I wonder how many fish Tetra killed this month??? This "e-minder program" from Tetra is mainly marketed to newbie's which makes it even worse.
Here is the email and I'll add my comments afterwards.
-----Original Message-----
From: Tetra [mailto:e-Minders@tetra-fish.com]
Sent: Monday, November 03, 2008 12:03 PM
To: Lenny Vasbinder
Subject: Monthly Aquarium Maintenance
Hello from TetraCare.
To keep your aquarium in tip-top condition, please be sure you're doing the following on a regular basis:

1. Test the water monthly using your test kit. Is the water okay (normal pH, zero ammonia, zero nitrite)? If not, please call us at 1-800-423-6458, and we'll help you correct any problems.
2. Do a partial (25%) water change, unless you're using EasyBalance(R). Be sure to add a water treatment such as AquaSafe(R) to the water you add to the aquarium, as tap water is toxic to your fish.
3. Change the cartridge in your Power Filter every month.
The TetraCare team is always here to help you.
You can contact us at 1-800-423-6458. We're here 7:30 a.m. to 9:00 p.m. EDT Monday through Friday, and Noon to 6:00 p.m. Saturday & Sunday; otherwise leave a voice mail message, and we promise to return your call within 24 hours!
There's never a charge for TetraCare - we're happy to help.
The TetraCare team
----- END MESSAGE ------
OK... The first tip is OK except it doesn't talk about testing for nitrates... which while not the perfect test to determine how good/bad the water quality might be, it's certainly an indicator of a potential problem and should be tested on a regular basis... especially considering the rest
of the "tips" given in this email.
The second tip is suggesting only a monthly 25% PWC which might be OK for a very lightly stocked aquarium... although I think even this example of a tank needs more than 25% of fresh clean water a month. Can you imagine how high the DOC (dissolved organic compound) level would get after the same water is flowing through a dirty filter for a month? The WORST part of this second tip is how Tetra says "... unless you're using EasyBalance..." which is a product Tetra pushes on newbie's. This is a product that Tetra says can be added to a tank and then you only have to do PWC's once every six months. I've written about this crappy chemical before and it's nasty stuff to put in an aquarium and subject fish to for six months. One forum thread I read several years ago added this stuff to their guppy tank and the guppies did not breed in the tank... so I ask... can a chemical that stops guppies from breeding possibly be good for your fish? Maybe Tetra should market this as birth control for livebearers... LOL
If the first two tips didn't kill all of your fish, the third one will likely put them over the edge. Now, Tetra, in order to sell more filter cartridges, is telling people to trash their fully cycled and perfectly good and healthy filter cartridge and advising folks to put a new one in, which will put the tank into a mini-cycle with resulting ammonia and nitrite spikes... every month. (Read my article "Filter Maintenance And Cleaning" for more info on this topic)
In conclusion... this example tank likely has a high nitrate level, huge levels of DOC's in the water column and is being put into a mini-cycle with soon to come ammonia and nitrite spikes... and this is being advised by Tetra to do this on a monthly basis.
So... does Tetra own some of the importing and pet fish farms, so they have an interest in killing as many fish as possible so they can sell people new fish??? Inquiring minds want to know!!!
Lenny Vasbinder
Fish Blog - http://goldlenny.blogspot.com/
(Links to articles referenced above listed on the right side under Archives - Year, Month and under Labels)

Friday, November 7, 2008

SeaChem pH Alert Compared To Mardel Live pH Monitor

http://tinyurl.com/Ammonia-Alert-Test

Update added December 6, 2008 -

I remember using the SeaChem Ammonia Alert years ago just to see how accurate it was since one of the "Fishless Cycling" sites actually used the Ammonia Alert instead of doing testing of ammonia levels. More recently, I've been seeing the Mardel brand of various water parameter "monitors" being advertised and since I had a free gift certificate for PetsMart and they had these Mardel monitors on sale, I decided to give the Mardel Live pH monitor a tryout.

I bought the 3-pack and after using it the past couple of months, I was never really happy with the levels it was showing since my API pH test kit and Tetratest-Laborette pH test kit were both showing higher levels than the Mardel Live pH monitor ever showed.

In order to be fair, I was placing a recent order with http://www.drsfostersmith.com/ and they had the SeaChem pH Alerts on sale so I decided to buy a couple of them.

I put one in my tank this morning and within an hour, it was clearly showing a pH level that I knew to be accurate. It's right next to the Mardel Live pH monitor which is showing a much lower pH... which is NOT accurate.

The other BIG factor is that the SeaChem pH Alert is supposed to last 3 to 6 months where the Mardel Live pH monitor only lasts 4 to 6 weeks and the cost was similar.

In closing, if you were going to use these handy little monitors, DEFINITELY go with the SeaChem pH Alert. Let me know, in the comments section, if your own comparison testing showed similar results to mine.... and I'll try to remember to update this blog when the SeaChem pH Alert finally wears out to see if it makes it to the 3 months or more mark.. or maybe even to the 6 month mark.

Update - December 5, 2008 -

It has been a month since I started using the SeaChem pH Alert and it seems to be very accurate when compared to my API test results. I have moderately hard water with a pH range of 7.4 to 7.8, so I'd like to hear from others who have used this little inexpensive monitor in softer water, lower pH conditions to see how accurate it has been for you. I've calendared another update in four weeks.

Lenny Vasbinder (aka GoldLenny in forums)

Tuesday, October 21, 2008

Planted Tank - So you want a planted tank! GREAT!!!

http://tinyurl.com/Planted-Tank

Updated - January 31, 2010 with Ray's Plant Sanitizing Tips
Updated - February 24, 2009 with plant packages from TFH magazine

I am regularly passing out the following links to folks, in forums, interested in setting up their first and simple planted tank. I figured it was about time that I just wrote up a blog article to include all of this information in one place so I can just direct folks to this page.

The GREAT thing about a planted tank is that it more closely mimicks nature and it also can completely eliminate the ammonia/nitrite issues associated with the nitrogen cycle when first starting up a new tank. A planted tank can also eliminate the need to do a fishless cycle so you can start up your planted tank and while you are getting it going, you can start figuring out which fish you are going to get so you don't have to look at an empty tank for several weeks like when fishless cycling.

Here are a few articles that I regularly refer folks to about setting up their first planted tank.

http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_newtank.htm
(Chuck's Planted Aquarium Pages - Setting Up A Planted Tank)

http://thegab.org/Articles/WalstadTank.html
(Goldfish And Aquarium Board - Setting Up A Walstad Natural Planted Tank - Summary Article) (Note - Some report that this method can lead to algae problems due to the use of soil in the substrate)

http://naturalaquariums.com/plantedtank/0512.html
(Tropical Fish Hobbyist Magazine - Lo-Tech Tanks article)

Reading over the above pages and the links associated on those pages will give every beginner a very big headstart at being successful with their planted tank.

These next links are to low-light, easy-to-grow plants which I recommend beginners start off with. Especially if you don't want to have the added expense and maintenance issues associated with high-light, special substrates and CO2 injection which might be required for higher light, harder-to-grow plants.

http://www.plantgeek.net/plantguide_list.php?category=2&filter_by=2 (PlantGeek.net - Guide to Very Easy plants)

http://www.plantgeek.net/plantguide_list.php?category=2&filter_by=3 (PlantGeek.net - Guide to Easy plants)

http://naturalaquariums.com/plantedtank/0609.html
(Tropical Fish Hobbyist Magazine - Easy Plants article)

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/plantfinder/
(AquaticPlantCentral.com - If you put in low for light and click Go, it will bring up a list of low light plants. If you do a second search in the Hardiness field and use Very Easy or Easy, you'll get a list of these types of plants... with good profiles on each of the plants. They started this database a couple of years ago and it has come a LONG way and appears to be much better than PlantGeek's now, so check it out!!!)

Another big issue some folks have with planted tanks is that oftentimes the plants will come with some snails or other critters hiding out in the plants roots or leaves. Here are a couple of sites on sanitizing and disinfecting your new live plants.

http://www.plantgeek.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1445

http://www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=167686

And here are Ray's (from AquaticLife) preferred treatment for snails and disinfecting plants:

To ensure your plants don't carry in snails to your tank (unless you don't mind having them), soak the plants in a solution of Alum (Aulminum Sulfate) which you should be able to find in the pickling and spice section of your market. Alum is by far the safest agent you can use for disinfecting plants of what are sometimes viewed as pests. Use 1 to 2 Tablespoons of Alum per gallon and allow the plants to soak at least overnight -- or up into the following day if you still see any activity of these intruders. Rinse them well after removing them.Update added Feb. 24, 2009 -
The next safest plant disinfecting agent you can use it Potassium Permanganate, an oxidizer which will kill off most any bacteria, fungus, and/or other small organism. A warning though -- as this is a purple dye medication, it will stain anything it comes in contact with, including your clothes, your rugs or your hands so you need to be careful of spilling it or getting it on your hands. You may not even be able to find it in your LFS, but if you can, with no certain measurement add enough to the water in your disinfecting container to turn the water a DARK pink, and let the plants soak for 20 minutes. Rinse them well after removing them.
An extremely effective way of disinfecting plants is to use regular chlorine bleach (bottled most often at 5% solution), adding 1 part of this bottled chlorine solution to 19 parts of water. Before going any further, I need to tell you that not all plants will tolerate this bath equally, and a few may not tolerate it at all. In general, plants are allowed to soak in this solution for between 2 and 3 minutes -- with tougher-leaved plants such as Anubias or Sagittaria easily tolerating the 3 minutes, and medium-leaved plants needing to be removed closer to the 2 minute limit. Some more delicate leaved plants such as Vallisneria or Anacharis may not tolerate much more than a minute -- if at all! I would not trust Crytps to this solution for any length of time either. A bucket of fresh water containing a dechlorinator should be kept on hand and used immediately for the plants as soon as they're removed. Whenever using this chlorine solution for disinfecting plants, NEVER allow the roots to be immersed. Then, rinse them well after removing.


I was reading the most recent edition of TFH magazine (Tropical Fish Hobbyist) and there was an ad (an ad, not a recommendation) for AquaBotanic.com and they had a package of 27 plants for the beginner in their "Hard To Kill" package for $46.38 and then at checkout, if you put in the discount code TFHPLANT, you get another 10% off.

Here's the link to the package on their website.
http://www.aquabotanicstore.com/Hard_to_Kill_Plant_Assortment_p/passort1.htm
Description...
27 plants
20 to 30 gallon. Double the order for 40 to 60 gallon
2 Java Fern
2 Anubias nana
3 Java Lace Fern
4 Cryptocoryne spiralis
6 Cryptocoryne wendtii small
1 Hornwort
2 Wisteria
10 Dwarf Sag (1 bunch)
1 Java moss
Value 51.53 savings: 5.15

(NOTE from L.V. - this price is from the website but the $46.38 is the price in the TFH magazine and then there's the separate mention of the 10% discount code... but maybe the price of $46.38 included the discount... I just looked at the ad again and it doesn't say)

Lighting requirements: 1.5 to 2 watts per gallon
C02 requirements: suggested but not required
Water conditions: hard or soft water
Temp: not critical
Fish compatibility: resistant to most plant nibblers

Just to give a comparison...
LiveAquaria.com (DrsFosterSmith.com "live" stuff sister site) has an aquarium plant package with just 11 (compared to 27 above) plants for $48.99.
http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=768+2147&pcatid=2147

And then there is this package on AZGardens.com, which has 34 plants for only $39.00 (so it's a better deal for total numbers but not sure on the individual plant prices) but I've heard good and bad about this company as far as their shipping charges so make sure you get the final price including shipping and get it all in writing... and maybe check them out at BBBonline.com too.
http://www.azgardens.com/p-126-easy-life-habitat-10-gal.aspx
1 Anacharis
2 Blood Stargrass
3 Japanese Fans
1 Dwarf Lily Plant
4 Dwarf Onions
1 Ambulia
10 Tall Sagittaria subulata
1 small red-spot Ozelot sword
8 Crypt Walkeri
3 Java Ferns
Fertilizer

Hope this helps folks thinking about getting started with live plants. I'm sure there are many other good websites for ordering easy-to-care for plant packages.

OK... this is just a starting point and after you will see that you have also come across several planted tank forums with the above four links so your more advanced questions can be addressed in one of those forums or at any of the forums listed on the right side of this page.

Lenny Vasbinder
aka GoldLenny in the forums

Saturday, April 5, 2008

Bio-Spira - LATE BREAKING NEWS.... GOOD OR BAD? I'm not sure!!!

ADDED JUNE 2008 -

DR. TIM'S AQUATICS new product, Dr. Tim's One And Only is my suggested replacement for Bio-Spira. More info - http://www.drtimsaquatics.com/productguide/H2O-PURE_Products/H2O-PURE_Products.html which is the new website for Dr. Tim Hovanec, who was the scientist who invented the original formula for Bio-Spira, as well as the Bio-Wheel filter system. Now that Tetra has merged with Marineland, I suspect that Marineland's once decent quality products will diminish in quality. Instead of looking around for Bio-Spira, just get Dr. Tim's One And Only and use it instead.

Below is just a rough draft of recent forum posts in the AquaticLife YahooGroup which came up in this thread.. http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/AquaticLife/message/26973, with the new info I've learned about the "new" Bio-Spira which will be coming out soon. Of course, since these are copies of my emails, the latest posts are on top so start at the bottom if you want to read things in chronological order. I've highlighted the pertinent "Late Breaking News" as red and bold text so you can scroll down and read it much quicker. Read this entire thread for more info about Bio-Spira, the nitrogen cycle, etc.

-----Original Message-----
From: Lenny V. aka GoldLenny [mailto:goldlenny@gmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 11:47 AM
To: 'AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: RE: Bio-Spira - was RE: [AquaticLife] New 50gal freshwater set up

Actually, the original Bio-Spira had active strains of Nitrosomonas, Nitrospira and Nitrosospira. It was these latter two that set Bio-Spira apart... well that and the fact that it was kept refrigerated to keep the bacteria in hibernation so they'd live in the package until used. Read that long interview with Dr. Hovenac that I linked to in my previous post (copied below). I really am waiting to see how Marineland or Tetra explains that this "new" product will work and keep the bacteria alive on the shelf.

Lenny Vasbinder
Fish Blog - http://goldlenny.blogspot.com/

-----Original Message-----
From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Lana Gibbons
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 10:40 AM
To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Bio-Spira - was RE: [AquaticLife] New 50gal freshwater set up

AUGH. :)

I meant "the only bacteria in Bio-spira is nitrospira, so it is missing nitrosomonas"

-Lana

> AFAIK, the only bacteria in Bio-spira is nitrosomonas (someone please
> correct me if I'm wrong here).

Carmen,

For pet and human bacteria supplements the bacteria are typically anaerobic
- they don't need oxygen to survive. I'm not so sure about septic bacteria, but it seems to me there wouldn't be that much aeration in the tank, so I'd guess it is also anaerobic.

From what I understand, aquarium bacteria is supposed to be aerobic since O2 is required for oxidizing nitrite to nitrate. What I don't understand is the difference between the standard Nitrosomonas/Nitrobacter vs. Bio-Spira which contains NitroSpira. Nitrobacter and NitroSpira basically do the same job (convert nitrite->nitrate), the only difference I can find is that NitroSpira grows slower and tends to be the nitrite oxidizing bacteria in natural samples more often than Nitrobacter. Nitrospira is slowed by high ammonia levels, which Nitrosomonas is needed to handle. AFAIK, the only bacteria in Bio-spira is nitrosomonas (someone please correct me if I'm wrong here).

-Lana

>
> Or (from pet odor control products) maybe they're using encapsulation
> technology, "wrapping" it with a small amount of oxygen that won't be
> depleted before the expiration date?
>
> Carmen

-----Original Message-----
From: Lenny V. aka GoldLenny [mailto:goldlenny@gmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 10:37 AM
To: 'AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: RE: Bio-Spira - was RE: [AquaticLife] New 50gal freshwater set up

Carmen,

I'm not sure about these so-called digestive aid bacteria since I've never done any research or reading about them (I'm down here in Southern Louisiana where we put hot sauce and lots of spices on just about everything so I've never needed any added digestive bacteria.. lol) and whether they will "live" outside of their normal environment (your intestines) but I do know that nitrifying bacteria need ammonia and oxygen to live. I know some bacteria will live in a dry environment and then become active under the right conditions (aka yeast) and nitrifying bacteria are an airborne bacteria in nature but there's a big difference between airborne bacteria and packaged products. In airborne conditions, there's just the right amount of moisture, plenty of O2 and there's an ammonia source from the nitrogen cycle that exists in all of nature.

It took Marineland ten years to develop the original Bio-Spira and their patent will be expiring soon.. I'm guessing in the next couple of years since the product came out in 2002 so it's at least six years old and most patents are only good for ten years. They were never really able to get it introduced to the mass marketplace due to the cost and other inhibiting factors associated with keeping it refrigerated during shipping and at retail levels. I would imagine that over the past ten years, while Bio-Spira held the patent on the hibernation method of keeping the nitrifying bacteria "alive" throughout the shipping and distribution process, all of the other so-called bacteria-in-a-bottle companies would have been figuring out a way to keep theirs alive without the need for refrigeration and NONE of them have done so... so I'm not sure how Marineland could have finally figured out a way to do it but I guess anything is possible so I'll wait and see some published reports from hobbyists and/or peer reviewed studies to come out. Here's a long interview with Dr. Timothy Hovenac, the lead scientist that helped develop Bio-Spira... http://aquamaniacs.net/forum/cms_view_article.php?aid=36

The fact that they are releasing the "new" Bio-Spira under Tetra's brand name makes me think it will just be another bottle of JUNK that they try to sell unsuspecting newbies. Of course, Bio-Spira did learn it was not just the nitrosomonas bacteria but the nitrospira and nitrosospira bacteria that started the nitrogen cycle so maybe, just maybe, if they do have some of these proper bacteria in a bottle, it might work but I'm very, very skeptical at this point. Why would they not use their own name? They already have really good brand recognition, with many hobbyists, as the only product that works as advertised so I'm not sure why they'd give that up... haven't they ever heard of "New Coke"? I'd like to see what Dr. Timothy Hovenac has to say about the new formula of Bio-Spira.

I know the other so-called bacteria-in-a-bottles do not work. For example, with the original Bio-Spira, you could add it one day and then start adding ammonia at up to 5ppm the next day and the tank would "cycle" properly (ammonia>nitrite>nitrate). I've read many posts from hobbyists who tried this experiment with the other bacteria-in-a-bottle products and NOTHING happened to the added ammonia the next day because there simply were NO live bacteria in the bottles. Eventually the tank would cycle but that would happen due to the airborne nitrifying bacteria eventually inhabiting the tank and growing large colonies. Most of the other bacteria-in-a-bottles did not even have the proper nitrifying bacteria.

Hey... now that's something we could do. Bottle air and sell it! Just kidding of course since the bottled air would eventually run out of O2 and ammonia as the nitrifying bacteria live and they would eventually die off. Hey, wait a minute.... we could sell bottles of air that aren't sealed so the nitrifying bacteria have a constant supply of fresh air and suspended ammonia so they would live. Or we could sell bottled air that has to be kept refrigerated to put the nitrifying bacteria into hibernation.

Oh well.. I don't have the patent yet so I'm making this special licensing offer to anyone else. You are welcome to use my idea of selling "GoldLenny's 100% Natural Air" complete with suspended nitrifying bacteria, oxygen and ammonia for use in jump starting the nitrogen cycle in aquariums. I do want a 5% royalty though! ;-)

I guess this belongs more on my Rants & Raves blog. LOL

On a side note, since I don't have 5-10 empty 10G tanks sitting around, maybe someone out here can go out and buy a bottle of each of the current so-called bacteria-in-a-bottle products and try this simple experiment. Set up the tanks running with a filter, add the product, wait the prescribed time period and then add 5ppm of ammonia and test it the next day to see if any of the ammonia was converted through the nitrogen cycle.

Lenny Vasbinder
Fish Blog - http://goldlenny.blogspot.com/


-----Original Message-----
From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Carmen H
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 8:35 AM
To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Bio-Spira - was RE: [AquaticLife] New 50gal freshwater set up

Been thinking on this one. I'm a dog person, not a chemist, but here's something I thought of...
Most high-end holistic dog foods contain probiotics (bacteria). They are applied after the food cools to avoid being damaged by heat.

Eagle Pack also sells them in a dried powder form to assist with either food transition and fix for upset tummies. The bacteria are in "suspended animation" due to being dried. Maybe they've figured out a way to suspend it similarly so that it is dormant and doesn't require oxygen. A liquid is obviously different but ??? Come to think of it, Septibac for septic systems is available in powder OR liquid...I've never done a pile of research on the efficacy of it but I spray it on my yard in the spring to help digest leftover winter waste after the major spring cleanup and it seems to work...

Or (from pet odor control products) maybe they're using encapsulation technology, "wrapping" it with a small amount of oxygen that won't be depleted before the expiration date?

Carmen

On Sat, Apr 5, 2008 at 12:02 AM, Lenny V. aka GoldLenny mailto:GoldLenny%40gmail.com> wrote:

> Bruce,
>
> There simply is not a way to have a room temp bottle of live
> nitrifying bacteria that would have a shelf life of more than a few
> days. The science simply doesn't support it.

-----Original Message-----
From: Lenny V. aka GoldLenny [mailto:goldlenny@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, April 04, 2008 11:02 PM
To: 'AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: RE: Bio-Spira - was RE: [AquaticLife] New 50gal freshwater set up

Bruce,

There simply is not a way to have a room temp bottle of live nitrifying bacteria that would have a shelf life of more than a few days. The science simply doesn't support it.
The bacteria need high O2 levels and feed off of ammonia... but if the ammonia level is above 5ppm, it starts to have a negative effect on the bacteria's colony growth and lifespan. Further, the bacteria colony is capable of doubling its size every 24-48 hours so even if they only put one or two nitrifying bacteria in a 16 oz. bottle of 5ppm ammonia solution, based on geometric progression, the colony would rapidly grow and consume all of the ammonia in a very short period of time.

Show me a product that has live bacteria living in the bottle after a couple of months in production, distribution and sitting on a shelf and I'll take back my words but frankly, I don't think such a product exists. I've tried several of the other so-called bottled bacteria products over the years and NONE of them worked as advertised... except Bio-Spira.

This is what was so GREAT about the original Bio-Spira and that it was kept refrigerated to keep the bacteria in hibernation so they did not consume all of the ammonia in the package until it was time to add the package to the aquarium. There were peer reviewed scientific reports proving that Bio-Spira actually had live nitrifying bacteria.

I've never seen any peer reviewed reports on any of the other so-called bacteria-in-a-bottle products. Once again, I'll take back my words if you can show me such reports on the products you claim work.

Lenny Vasbinder
Fish Blog - http://goldlenny.blogspot.com/

-----Original Message-----
From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of bruce cohen
Sent: Friday, April 04, 2008 10:05 PM
To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Bio-Spira - was RE: [AquaticLife] New 50gal freshwater set up

Not all all bacteria in a bottle are pure JUNK The tropical science company have an excellent line of bacterias in a bottle both for saltwater and fresh including freshwater spawning aid as well as pro botics that protect fish. they even have a gravel product that does what it says cleans the gravel without increasing nitrates. it apears that marineland may have figured out a way to put the bacteria in a statis but I do know that Jungle Labs are probally not going to be happy when they have to re name there product since theirs were on the market first then they should have the rights to calling there product start right.

"Lenny V. aka GoldLenny" mailto:GoldLenny%40gmail.com> > wrote:

More late breaking news about Bio-Spira...

I wonder if it's going to work as well as the original product or if it's just going to another bacteria-in-a-bottle that doesn't work. It could be why they are releasing it under Tetra's label since Tetra will pretty much sell anything in a bottle... look at their Easy Balance with Nitraban product which is pure JUNK!!!

Here is the reply I got from Marineland...

Hello,

We are relaunching bio-spira. It is in a new package and reformulated.

It will no longer need to be refrigerated, and hopefully, soon on every store shelf across the nation. The freshwater version will be branded Tetra and called start right, while the saltwater version will be branded Instant Ocean and still be called Bio-Spira.

They held off on adding it to the webpage because of this change.

Regards,

Robert Huber
United Pet Group, Aquatics Div.
Senior Consumer Relations Specialist
Robert.Huber@Tetra.net <
mailto:Robert.Huber%40Tetra.net> 1-800-526-0650 ext. 6126

-----Original Message-----
From: Lenny V. aka GoldLenny [
mailto:goldlenny@gmail.com <mailto:goldlenny%40gmail.com> ]
Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 11:29 AM
To: 'AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <
mailto:%27AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> '
Subject: Bio-Spira - was RE: [AquaticLife] New 50gal freshwater set up

Mike,

I was shocked when I saw your post so I did some Googling and it looks like the rumor may be partially correct.
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/ <http://www.drsfostersmith.com/> was carrying Bio-Spira up until recently but now it's no longer on their website either. When I looked at http://www.marineland.com/, <http://www.marineland.com,/> there's no mention of Bio-Spira either. WTF!!

Then I called Marineland's 800 number and found out some interesting stuff.

For the past couple of years, Marineland has been working on a way to bottle Bio-Spira so it did not have to be refrigerated, since the refrigeration aspect was a big problem getting Bio-Spira into ALL pet stores and/or selling it easily online.

According to the person I spoke to, there is still some of the "old" product available at some retailers and online sources but he could not give me any of the online sources because his computer was acting up. The new Marineland website still has the store locator function and he suggested looking for a retailer in the area and contacting them to see if any have or might have access to some of the remaining inventory of the old Bio-Spira.

It will be interesting to see how they package it and their explanation as to why it doesn't have to be refrigerated since the big explanation for why Bio-Spira worked all along and why all of the other bacteria-in-a-bottle products didn't work was because it was refrigerated and the bacteria were kept in hibernation. The room temperature stuff could not keep the bacteria alive if there ever was live bacteria in the room temp bottles in the first place.

He also said that they just revamped their website and did not put Bio-Spira on it yet since the new product isn't available yet and they have shipped their final inventory of the old product. I told him they should put a press release or something on a link to Bio-Spira on their website so people will know, otherwise the internet rumor mill will have all kinds of misinformation out there in a matter of minutes.

Lenny Vasbinder
Fish Blog -
http://goldlenny.blogspot.com/ <http://goldlenny.blogspot.com/>
-----Original Message-----
From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Deenerz@aol.com <mailto:Deenerz%40aol.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 4:35 AM
To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New 50gal freshwater set up

Sissy,

I heard a new batch has not been made in about two years and none is scheduled to be made at this time. I heard a rumor that Dr. Fosters and Smith might have an alternative but have not had a chance to check myself.

-Mike

If you can find Marineland's Bio-spiral, it will set up a bacteria bed instantly. It's a bacteria suspentded in a medium that seeds the nitrifying bacteria strains into your system, that normally takes at least 21 days to establish with starter fish. It is hard to find,and sometimes if

-----Original Message-----
From: Sissy Sathre
>
To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 11:31 am
Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New 50gal freshwater set up

Hi Lisa, a 50 gallon is a perfect size aquarium for a beginner. Much larger margin for mistakes than smaller tanks. I suggest going to :
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/fwsetupindex.htm <http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/fwsetupindex.htm>

You will find "Good" information there from very experienced aquariest.
You'll find different ways of filtering your new aquarium from under ground filters, invented in the 1950's to supply oxygen to your bacteria bed-creating a biological balance, to the newest methods of we/dry filters, bio-wheels,other hang on filters, canister filters and denitrification filters.

If you can find Marineland's Bio-spiral, it will set up a bacteria bed instantly. It's a bacteria suspentded in a medium that seeds the nitrifying bacteria strains into your system, that normally takes at least 21 days to establish with starter fish. It is hard to find,and sometimes if you call Marineland and tell them you cant find it in your area, they will send it to you Free overnight shipping and all. It has a short shelf life and has to be keep cool,so many stores dont carry it. I am the Marineland service rep. in west-Tx. They have sent it to me to give out before for free ! Marineland is the manufacture of commercial lobster tanks, and MARS systems, the wall unites you see in Wal-marts and they manufacture aquariums and aquarium supplies including the Bio-wheel filters.

You can of coarse cycle the fishless way,and speed the process of the nitrogen cycle.
The best way in my opinion is to get a hand full of gravel from a healthy existing aquarium, or exchange bio-wheels from a existing filter. I do both and start my clients tanks out with hardy fish in 24 hours. I only add a few fish to feed the bacteria bed, then make sure no mini cycle is taking place, and then add a few more every couple weeks until is at capacity for the size the fish will grow.

I hope this helps!

Sissy Sathre
DBA Aquariums By Sissy
http://www.aquariumsbysissy.com/

-----Original Message-----
From: Lenny V. aka GoldLenny [mailto:goldlenny@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2008 9:48 PM
To: 'AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] New 50gal freshwater set up

Hi Lisa,

A good free place to start is to look at profiles for your proposed fish on http://fish.mongabay.com/ Each profile will have a paragraph called SC (Suggested Companions) which will give you a baseline of usually compatible fish to start off with. Remember though... the fish do not always read the same things we do so there will sometimes be problems. The Mongabay profiles also give you recommended tank size, feeding tips, water parameters, etc.

Another good place to start is my "A to Z of Fish Keeping" page on my blog http://goldlenny.blogspot.com/. That one page will cover most aspects of beginner fish keeping and there are links to two different free online tutorials that you can take at your leisure which will walk you through all of the basics. Pay special attention to fishless cycling your new tank and learn the basics of "the nitrogen cycle", called "Cycling" in the fish keeping world. It's the biggest mistake most newbies make by not fishless cycling their tank or trying to cycle with fish and not understanding the arduous process that the fish are going through.

Since you have the tank, you could set it up and get the fishless cycling process going while you take the tutorials and read up more on the types of fish you might want. Make a list of what you like and look around at your locals stores to see what they have. It will take a couple of weeks to fishless cycle the tank and you will probably change your planned stocking several times during this time period.

Don't fall for all the so-called-chemical fixes that the stores try to sell you. Get a decent master test kit now and do a baseline test on your tap water so you will know what you are starting with. I have a blog on doing the baseline testing. Post your before/after numbers here and we'll help you decipher them.

Let us know which books you have. There are about 1,000 bad books for every good book out there... especially when it comes to setting up a new tank since much of what we've learned about the nitrogen cycle in fish keeping has happened in the past 10 or so years. I've got some books published by well known publishers that are plain JUNK. If you want to buy a magazine, get TFH - Tropical Fishkeeping Hobbyist rather than Aquarium Fish Magazine since AFM has some real junk information coming out of it where TFH is usually very reliable. I'm about to do a new blog comparing the two magazines just to show the disparity of information that is out there by popular publications.

Your 50G tank will not be large enough for long term keeping of the Bala Shark since they grow to 16". Here is the profile on the Bala Shark and I've copy/pasted the SC section ... http://fish.mongabay.com/species/Balantiocheilus_melanopterus.html

Here is the profile on Angelfish... scroll down about halfway to the more common angelfish... http://fish.mongabay.com/angelfish.htm A 50G tank, depending on the dimensions, would be a good home for 1-3 angelfish and depending on how many angelfish you go with, you could have other fish also. Angelfish get pretty BIG (6" long x 9" high) and even though they are peaceful cichlids, they are cichlids and are not always angels so they need their space. ;-)

Lenny Vasbinder
Fish Blog - http://goldlenny.blogspot.com/

-----Original Message-----
From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Lisa
Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2008 5:37 PM
To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AquaticLife] New 50gal freshwater set up

----- Original Message -----
From: Lisa
To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2008 5:37 PM
Subject: [AquaticLife] New 50gal freshwater set up

Hi all.

I'm looking at maybe starting a new freshwater tank, and need all the help I can get.
It will probably be a 50 gal or smaller.

I really am a novice at this. So I have no idea where to begin.

I like bala sharks. And would like to know what other species I would be able to keep with them.

Either that or some angels.

So where do I start?

I have some books on freshwater set ups which cover plants and various species of fish. But they don't have a great deal of information. I figured it would be great to talk to people with experience.

First of all. How, when and how much do I need to do a water change?

How do I get the right water conditions?
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